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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-07 02:37, Big Jeff wrote: I don't know the answer to that. But, what would the proportion have to be (needless deaths vs. legitimate self defense) before it would be intolerable? Quote:
When guns PREVENT a crime it doesn't get reported by our news media. I just thought of the corollary to this; When everyone is carrying a gun, you won't know who the wacko is until he starts shooting people. (And, unless your arms bearing citizens are excellent marksmen, how many bystanders are going to get hit in the shootout take down said wacko?) Quote:
Count me as one of the outlaws. Posted: Sep 8, 2005 8:48am ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2005-09-07 11:22, inidyls wrote: I'm personally against "trophy" hunters (if you're going to shoot it, you *** well better pack it out and eat it!) and stupid hunters like the guy in Maine who fired at a flash of white and ended up killing a young woman who was hanging out her laundry. (To be fair, she should have been wearing bright orange, but she was new to the area and didn't realize the depths of stupidity some people can reach) The man had a buck only license, which requires the verification of antlers before shooting. The law was that he was not to hunt within a certain distance of housing (which he was) and was certainly not to aim his rifle in the direction of the housing (which he obviously did). And before I hear about the poor man getting turned around, if you're going to be out in the woods with a rifle and the power of life and death, you should have a better sense of woodcraft than to get yourself turned around and getting a young woman killed because of it. The case was judged "death by misadventure" and the man got off. (He claimed to be horribly shaken by the whole thing and "will never hunt again." We should be so lucky) I figured it was a good thing for him that he only shot a person. If he'd actually killed a doe with his bucks only license, he might have gotten into trouble. Posted: Sep 8, 2005 8:49am --------------------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2005-09-07 12:34, Leland Stone wrote: To be fair, the box cutters got them a bigger weapon. (A plane) It was the planes that killed 3,000 people.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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mike paris Regular user 179 Posts |
In the UK, the population is around 60 million, only limited people are allowed to purchase guns, my guess, less than 1%. Do a check to see how many gun-shops there are in UK?.
In the states the population is around 250 million ,what percentage have guns 10%? that's 25 million guns. Jonathan, do you have the site for the extreme judges? I'll give it a look. |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
I've been avoiding this discussion...but, I can't hold out any longer. As a cop and criminal investigator I carried a loaded firearm 24/7 for 22 years. Thirteen years after retiring, I still carry a loaded firearm most of the time that I'm out and not performing. My daughters both grew up around firearms and are both skilled marksmen. Oddly, outside of a war zone, I have yet to kill anyone with one of these weapons. My daughters have yet to shoot at a playmate or an errant boyfriend. Over the years, I have taught hundreds of Scouts and Explorers gun safety and competitive marksmanship skills. I've yet to hear of any of them shooting a neighbor, spouse or innocent. Several have gone on to careers in the military or law enforcement.
As a trained cop and caring father, I would LOVE to see a 100% firearm and violence free world. As a realist, I know this will never happen in my lifetime; laws or no laws. Hence, I will continue to demand my right and privilege to protect myself and the innocents around me from those who would take what they want through violence and fear. When gun laws are enforced with merciless rigidity and real, in-your-face sentences, gun related crimes will dwindle. When parents are held fully accountable for the cold-blooded acts of violent underage offspring, change will begin. When schools are once again permitted to confront and discipline violent behavior and rudeness within the school walls without fear of parental reprisal and law suits, sanity will return. Taking the firearms from the hands of law-abiding and educated citizens simply makes them defenseless victims for the violent, sociopathic entities prowling our cities. If you want to quote stats, quote the stats that count for something. In 2000, the U.S. Bureau of Justice compiled a multinational comparison of reported crime stats. According to this report, between 1981 through 1999, The United States reported .94 robberies, .99 rapes and .081 homicides per population of 1000. England reported .76 robberies, .70 rapes and .08 homicides per population of 1000. Australia reported .31 robberies, .48 rapes and .025 homicides per population of 1000. England's numbers seem awfully close to those of the U.S....for a gun-restricted society. All three offences are ones in which firearms may be a common factor in the U.S....and yet, they are nearly as common in gun-free England. Curious, no? Rant complete, Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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mike paris Regular user 179 Posts |
Skip, we all have an opinion as to what we think is right, I respect what you say, you are a responsible person, the problem is ,not every one that has a gun is responsible, and whenever someone gets shot its always the mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, grandparents and friends that are affected. You could say so what, its their own fault, but its not always the baddies that get shot.
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
We agree there, Mike. So, the issue should be individual responsibility and the duty of accepting one's punishment when one fails to meet that responsibility... not the wholesale destruction of firearms or withdrawing a citizens right to legitimately own them. No?
How on Earth did we get onto this topic?!? :o) Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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irossall Special user Snohomish, Washington 529 Posts |
Mandrake01 wrote:
Quote:
"I'm personally against "trophy" hunters (if you're going to shoot it, you *** well better pack it out and eat it!) and stupid hunters like the guy in Maine who fired at a flash of white and ended up killing a young woman who was hanging out her laundry. (To be fair, she should have been wearing bright orange, but she was new to the area and didn't realize the depths of stupidity some people can reach)" I agree with the trophy hunter sentiment and I can tell you that most of the hunters that I know (and I know many) eat their trophy as well as display it. I disagree with the statement that the woman should have been wearing orange. She was in her own yard and new to the area or not she should not be dictated to by others as to what clothing she should be wearing. When I visit the city should I not wear a red shirt because some dingbat gang banger will think that I am a "blood" and want to shoot me? I don't think so. Homey don't play that. Accident or not the "hunter" should have served some serious time for what he did which gets back to my previous post. The lack of serious punishment for many who kill or hurt others is the main problem here. It's just that simple. Iven
Give the gift of Life, Be an Organ Donor.
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mike paris Regular user 179 Posts |
Its a sad fact of life, that crime all over the world has grown out of all proportion, I remember when I was a kid (a long time ago),there was no drugs in the schools, or on the street,but now, they are so freely available. You are right about people being responsible ,but the numbers of irresponsibility are growing too fast ,and the police forces just cannot cope, and so we are forced to protect our families and property, and to rely on the government to make things better (fingers crossed).
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
Mike, you're a gentleman. I love the gentle, logical discussions that share equal consideration for both...or multiple...sides of a topic. Like you...I wish for return to the days when I could ride my bike for endless miles in exploration without causing my mother to collapse into worry or concern. I wish for schools where children can be children and teachers are role models to be respected, honored and sometimes playfully razzed when no one's looking. I wish for a return to parents who knew how and when to say "No!" and were more concerned with how we'd turn out than how they would appear to the neighbors. I was 14 and my mother wouldn't let me go to James Bond films...because they were too violent and had scantily dressed women...and all I cared about were the great cars and gadgets! Sadly, every lamp I bought in Saudi has already been emptied of their magical Gen...regardless of how hard I polish them. Here's to better days somewhere ahead!
Iven...I agree with you. Even the accidental taking of a life through negligence or incompetence should face a lesson-giving sentence...whether it is with a loaded rifle held by a sober hunter or a loaded driver behind the wheel of a car. There should be a severe price for taking a life...any life. Skip
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
There have been some dumb quotes I could use about restricting firearms and so forth. They are all wrong!
The basic fact is this [read it slowly] Criminals or anyone wishing to use a gun for any illegal purpose can get one easy. Any country any gun, just know the people and pay the money. I have to go on hunting holidays (not complaining) as the ownership of firearms in the UK is outrageous, to the extent that our Olympic shooters have to practice in other countries. When I shoot animals I dress and eat them or cure them for later, I as hunter pay full respect to the environment and prey when I hunt. The level of respect I have for nature would exceed any environmentalist's understanding. The killing of people with firearms is only valid if in defense of ones life or the lives of other people so endangered by a person, also the defense of ones country. Another thing with the UK. We have to send our police out to America for firearm training. 90% of UK firearm officers, i.e. basic gun cops. are so poor at shooting that you could run up too them and punch them on the jaw then run away without being hit. My next holiday will be in the US hunting elk.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Big Jeff Loyal user 300 Posts |
Here's a current example of a gun preventing a crime and possible saving the guys life.
An ice cream man in Vancouver, Washington was flagged down on a bridge. When he stopped the guy asked for a ride and the driver said no. the guy started walking away and then ran back and tried to jump into the truck through a side door which was locked. The driver reached for his gun and the other guy had climbed in the widow. The driver pointed the gun at him and the other guy ran away. The police arrested the other guy and found a KNIFE. If the driver hadn't had a gun he would have been robbed or maybe killed. I'm sure this happens hundreds of times a day all over the country and either doesn't get reported to the police or doesn't make the papers. |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
In India there was a man who stopped a home invasion with a CANON! Therefore, we should all have canons to protect ourselves!
Can someone tell me WHY Australia has a low murder rate (by gun or other method) and America has a high murder rate? |
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andl Regular user Austria 159 Posts |
Michael Moore´s "Bowling for Colombine" has a lot of interesting thoughts on this topic...
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inidyls Veteran user NYC 315 Posts |
In India there was a man who stopped a home invasion with a CANON! Therefore, we should all have canons to protect ourselves!
To me the man in India did the right thing , he still stopped the home invasion! He also made a good statement, invade my house you'll get a canonball up your *** |
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inidyls Veteran user NYC 315 Posts |
Michael Moore´s "Bowling for Colombine" has a lot of interesting thoughts on this topic...
He's also a nutcase and loves to spin everything. It's amazing what people do for money |
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cardone Special user 860 Posts |
Would some one define "arms".... I don't think our founding fathers knew what a mega corporation was.... machine guns, nukes, trillions or dollars...etc.. I think if they were alive today they would be very disappointed.
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Yes Cardone, I think they would be very disappointed. Disappointed that people make some many lame excuses to explain away something so simple as personal responsibility. None of the things you mentioned matter one bit when it comes to a question of killing an innocent person or using a weapon in the commission of a crime. Or the right of the citizenry to bear arms.
Your excuses wouldn't fly. And don't shed your crocodile tears for the Founding Fathers, they were a lot stronger and lived in a harder world than we do. More violent as well. These weren't a bunch of pansies who threw around lines like "Boo Hoo, please cry for me Argentina, our Founding Fathers would be soooooo disappointed" When these guys pledged their Lives, their Fortunes and their Sacred Honor. It actually meant something. This was no bunch of hand wringers.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-09 02:44, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote: Why don't you tell us Nicholas? I'm sure you have some theories. Come on, lets hear them. How about because Australians are so smart and civilized and some much more respecting of life than the savage Americans? Maybe Americans are too stupid and not nearly as cultured as Australians. Is that what you'd like to say? Then say it. You've posted some statistics and asked the question WHY?? oh WHY?? You're the one with the statistics, which you hold up as some sort of proof of something. Statistics that you give a lot of weight to. Why don't you enlighten us with some answers? Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
What? Australians more civilized than Yanks? Aren't they the ones who used to post bounties on the heads of aboriginals, said bounties being collected by persons whose weapons of choice were usually...guns?
Nothing seems to provoke as much hysteria amongst liberals as gun ownership...except perhaps tobacco and, sometimes, fast food. Automobile fatalities exceed gun deaths each year, yet no one calls for the criminalization of car ownership; some people die in plane crashes each year, yet still no move to outlaw airplanes. Name the activity or object and there is a fatality associated with its misuse (even bathtubs and stepladders), yet only firearms are stigmatized. (And before somebody responds that "nobody's ever committed robbery with a loaded stepladder," note the qualifier "misuse.") Proportionality is a fair question, and "murders : crimes prevented with firearms" is a ratio that can reasonably be examined. But if the rate of murders flattens or decreases only slightly while while the rate of crimes prevented with firearms substantially decreases, then proportionality is not a good argument for the elimination of lawful firearms. Lastly, while box-cutters were not a direct cause of most of the 9-11 murders, consider this: Had the hijackers used handguns instead, would the din from the anti-gun crowd have subsided yet? Leland |
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inidyls Veteran user NYC 315 Posts |
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On 2005-09-09 09:51, Vandy Grift wrote: SO TRUE, SO TRUE. If we didn't have guns we wouldn't be here today. Everyone cries about war, well did you ever stop to think this is how we became a free nation- |
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mike paris Regular user 179 Posts |
Guns NOW are a necessity for protection. I just think that when they are in the house or car they should be in a SECURE place, not just left in a drawer where they could be stolen.
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