Hey all. I'm still enjoying reading through all the threads here, and learning all the time. My question is on pain control. It's an area that's interested me for some time, but I've found information on it hard to come by. I hate to mention his name again, but Derren Brown did some good displays of this.

In one example he kept his hand over a candle for a very long time, whilst a queue of other people all did their best on a second candle, each only lasted a few seconds. Secondly, he 'numbed' a volunteers hand and passed a needle through the skin on the back of the hand with no pain. It was then removed, and there was no sign of blood etc.

My questions are;

Firstly, I know it is possible to fake such effects ('psychic surgery' etc.), but is it possible to do such feats for real?

Secondly, can you recommend any resources on pain control for me to study?

Finally, I imagine that NLP plays a part in such effects, and I would like to learn more about it anyway. What NLP books would you suggest I start off with? I don't have any prior knowledge of this subject.

Thanks, as always, for your help.

Pain control wasn't done with NLP

And DB effect wasn't pain control neither (IMO).

I'm not sure what you mean by pain control, like being able to not feel pain? It may be possible but not by NLP, just remember whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. So if you take a lot of pain, maybe you wouldn't feel it as much.

With all respect, TheRetainer, start from the bottom. Direct your energies into learning about mentalism in a more contructive way than duplicating another's feats.

A somewhat irrelevant comment about pain:

Pain is a strange beast. Pain is completely subjective. I have a brother who could quite literally slice across his skin with a sharp knife, stub out a cigarette on his hand, he could probably even duplicate the "hand over the candle" without trickery and all without wincing. The most you would probably get is a "that's annoying".

How does he achieve these remarkable feats? Does he have some bizarre medical condition, is he mad? No, not at all. In his career as a chef he is used to extremes of pain. Even from an early age he adopted a mental attitude that pain was just something in your mind - and he seems to be able to control pain very adebtly.

Having said this, DO NOT attempt to do what my brother is able to do. He, IMO, is somewhat exceptional in his ability to control it. There is a reason for pain and the warning that your body gives you should be heeded.

Regards,

Kris Sheglova

Hi,

If you are looking for NLP books the classics are Frogs into Princes, Transformations, Structure of Magic 1&2, and Reframing. All of the above are by the founders Bandler and Grinder. I understand that some of these may be hard to find. However, a search of Amazon for books by Richard Bandler should keep you busy for some time to come.

Stan

The control or elimination of pain by *hypnosis* is one of it's oldest functions. (NLP was to a considerable extent derived from the hypnosis of Dr Milton Erickson.) In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, before the introduction of chemical anaesthetics, hypnosis was frequently used in order to eliminate the patient's pain in surgery. (It is still used today for this purpose in those cases where the use of chemical anesthetic is contra-indictated, and at innovative health facilities such as the Mayo Clinic in the US.)

Hypnosis is widely used to deal with people suffering from chronic pain, where drugs have not been effective. There is a huge literature on this subject, of which the following books are excellent:

Dave Elman - Hypnotherapy
Ernest and Josephine Hilgard - hypnosis in the Relief of Pain
Joseph Barber (editor) - Hypnosis and Suggestion in the Treatment of Pain
Milton Erickson - Collected Papers on Hypnosis

Derren Brown is a master showman, and the sequence where he keeps his hand over a candle while several circus performers in turn have to remove their hand *could* be a genuine display of self-hypnosis on Derren's part. In the sequence where he has a group of medical students in an historic operating theatre (from the days before chemical anesthetics) and induces them to feel a pain in the jaw when he touches it, this *could* be an example of hypnotic suggestion, if those particular students were selected for their high hypnotic responsiveness. However, the part where Derren seems to push a hypodermic needle through the skin on a student's hand and he not only feels no pain but there is no blood or cutting of the skin could not possible have been achieved through hypnosis. It's a well-performed magic trick - in all likelihood the same concept as the cut and restored rope trick, or the coin through table, but made much more impressive by context and presentation.

But it's also worth considering that no matter how hypnotized you are, the skin is still only skin. And assuming that Mr. Brown wants to continue classic palming...

The needle effect, you can find it in one of the Ormond McGill "psychic magic" volume, and I think it is also in the encyclopedia of stage hypnosis by Ormond McGill again.

Ben

Both of these DB effects do not use NLP.

NLP is, (in my opinion) a waste of time and a scam.

If you believe in NLP, you may as well sign up for a series of psychic development classes and develop 'real powers'. Or, you can learn to create these illusions using trickery.

I congratulate DB on his presentational skills since he seems to have fooled many mentalists.
Kevin

In the US state (PA) that I live in, trained mental health professionals like psychologists and virtually any kind of therapist could go to jail for doing *any* pain control without a written medical referral. My old teacher required three!

The Magic Café is a place for magicians and (in this section) mentalists. Pain control has nothing to do with mentalism. Far less than 1% of Magic Café members are going to understand much if *any* of 4 collected volumes of Erickson! All this cutting edge medical/psychological talk is inapproriate for this forum. You won't understand it, won't be able to (G-d forbid) do it, and probably are breaking the law even trying or fooling around with something WAY over your head. What's next, a thread on brain surgery or heart transplants for magicians. To the 1% on this list who may have the ethical or legal qualifications, I urge you from the bottom of my heart to save it for more appropriate forums with your professional colleagues. These are magicians, not licensed healers. They don't need literary references to go and look up between magic shows. Just a suggestion from an Ericksonian who knows his limits and is urging others to respect the line. Can we please get back to magic and mentalism here? Please? As I said before, I hope this thread goes away. It's inappropriate. And to the possible 1% - why on earth are you making what should be left out of awareness in awareness? ... Please!

Richard Busch

Wow, a number of good replies here. Thanks to all of you. I'll address each of them in turn. If I don't address you personally, it's not that I ignored your post, it's just that I read and understood what you are saying and don't feel anything needs to be said in response.

AllThumbs: I agree with you about starting at the bottom-no argument about that. It is the way I'm choosing to learn about mentalism, and am in no rush to perform anything. I know I still have much to learn. Also, I am not at all interested in simply copying Derren Brown, or any other performer. I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that one must come up with his/her OWN performances. I must admit that watching Derren Brown re-ignited my interest in the field of mentalism. However, it is not my aim to learn a few tricks and go out and pretend to be something I'm not.

PK: Re: NLP being a scam. I respect your opinion, but I want to do more research on the subject before I agree/disagree with you.

Richard Busch: A very interesting post. Firstly, let me assure you that I don't intend to do anything illegal. The reason I posted about pain control on this board is because I thought it may be a result of methodology used in other mentalism effects. I could not think (at the time I posted) of a better place to enquire about it than here. You obviously feel very strongly that such a subject does not fall under 'magic' or 'mentalism' and as such does not belong here. Believe me, I find this board a source of great enjoyment and knowledge, and I would never want to deliberately post anything inappropriate here. I did not know many of the things you mentioned in your post-ie. I've learned a great deal from this thread, which was my goal. Please do not feel so anxious about my enquiring into this subject. Had I known that pain control is something medical, not magical, I would not have asked about it here. As for wanting this thread to go away, I think I must disagree. Better someone in my position read your post and realize that pain control is not something to be learned and performed as an act, than to carry on unaware of the potential dangers. Thanks for your post, it was most informative-if a little intimidating.

In case you're wondering if there was a specific reason why I wanted to know more on pain control- there was. I'm a bodybuilder, who'll be competing next year. I couldn't help but feel that in a sport such as mine, which is 90% mental, that the ability to focus more on the lift and less on any discomfort would help me in my training.

Those of you who quoted references, thank you for that. I may not need them now, but I appreciate your help.

I hope this has cleared a few things up, and other questions/comments, either post here or PM me.

Thanks,
TheRetainer- who learned a great deal from this thread.

Excuse me, but what are we talking about here!!!

Why NLP is in a topic of "pain control"?

Magicians practice illusion of pain control (the block head, the bed of nail, the acid test) for a long time, and is there a risk? Of course, this kind of magic can't be absolutly safe by nature, they require a careful and proper training: BUT THEY REMAIN ILLUSION TECHNICS.

I agree that some fools will try to resist to pain by really putting their hand on fire. I also know that in proper state (with hypnosis for example) it can be done...

But do you really want that a child (for example) who reads these lines to try such an experience: I hope no.

I respect that some of you want to be pure and do this for real: but don't let people think we can do it easily, it's very risky and potentially very dangerous.

If you have a master or a way of learning fire walking properly, let go and try it for yourself, but be careful when you explain that such or such "psychological technic" can let us do such experiences. Because EVEN IF YOU ARE IN A STATE OF ANESTHESIA YOUR FLESH CAN BE SEVERLY HARMED.

Never forget that a lot of these technics are illusions, only harmless illusions. They look like "dangerous and impressive" but they are harmless.

And it's clearly not the case when you put your hand on fire.

And sorry for the following line but I really don't know why some of you put NLP here or NLP there. NLP can be a good tool to add a plus to your mentalism but it's clearly not this kind of "miracle technic" some people seem to think. Basis of NLP are a way to control the language, control the informations people seem to receive or give, through body, eyes and words. NLP can do, in many cases a kind of conditionning of your spect (anchoring), but it's not hypnosis.

See you soon,

The mind Control TV series which has made such an impact here in the UK is a very slick production which probably pushes some of the normal boundaries of Mentalism.

There is at least one genuine demonstration of pain control using a needle through someones hand if I remember correctly. Very similar to any demo you might see on a hypnosis course about pain.

I agree that no one should attempt to do this without training and even then can't find any justification for using it in an act.

Its the clever use of real, psuedo technology and traditional mentalism that has caused so much controversy around this show.

On one hand you get the "its all trickery and showmanship" and on the other you get the "its all NLP and psychological" camp.

When in actual fact they blurr into each other.

However the candle effect in my opinion doesn't use NLP or self hypnosis. Without giving away any secrets there is another and probably more likely way this was achieved.

Amen!
I'm sure to see 1 or 2 techniques that can let us do this almost safely without NLP...

However, the part where Derren seems to push a hypodermic needle through the skin on a student's hand and he not only feels no pain but there is no blood or cutting of the skin could not possible have been achieved through hypnosis. It's a well-performed magic trick - in all likelihood the same concept as the cut and restored rope trick, or the coin through table, but made much more impressive by context and presentation.
[/quote]

Actually this has been used as a demonstration of hypnosis for decades with nothing other than verbal suggestion.
Hypnosis absolutely can be done. Without it - it can be done.

Enjoy!
Rex

And sorry for the following line but I really don't know why some of you put NLP here or NLP there. NLP can be a good tool to add a plus to your mentalism but it's clearly not this kind of "miracle technic" some people seem to think. Basis of NLP are a way to control the language, control the informations people seem to receive or give, trought body, eyes and words. NLP can do, in many cases a kind of conditionning of your spect (anchoring), but it's not hypnosis.

See you soon,
[/quote]

Actually a large portion of NLP is hypnosis. The study of. NLP has widely benefited the field of hypnotherapy and vice versa. Many hypnotists besides Milton erickson were studied and work included in the field of NLP. Some NLP programs are heavy into teaching hypnosis while others are not. Many of the books are about hypnosis. Patterns the hypnotic techniques of Milton erickson, Trasformations, and a host of others.

I feel the biggest challenge is not getting people into trance - but helping them out of their current already ongoing everyday trance. Helping people to wake up is far more important.

Enjoy!
Rex

Derren has studied hypnosis don't forget. I assume this is the second time someone has been put under off camera and the "effect" presented as something other than hypnosis.

It's all part of the different "spin" the DB team wish to put on things. But it makes for a good show. Magicians should take it more with a pinch of salt.

Paul.

Rex - As far as I've always understood it, it *is* possible to stop the flow of blood under hypnotic suggestion. But if you watch the "needle through skin" sequence in Mind Control, it *looks* like the needle goes through the skin in such a position that it would cause a lesion which would be visible after it had been withdrawn, even if hypnosis was successfully used. Yet when the needle is withdrawn, the student's hand shows no sign of any cut or lesion or scar. This would surely be impossible even under the deepest hypnosis. This makes me assume that that particular effect is a magic trick executed through sleight-of-hand. (But of course, I can;t say I know for sure.)

Right, time for someone who has actually done this, to chime in.

If you go to secret sessions, I will gladly reveal how it's done, as it's an old. old trick!

re;
Yet when the needle is withdrawn, the student's hand shows no sign of any cut or lesion or scar. This would surely be impossible even under the deepest hypnosis.

The camera did NOT zoom in close enough for anyone to see whether two tiny needle holes could be seen in the skin or not!! You are assuming this is the case. Just as I am assuming you have never seen a hypnotherapist working live and close up.

Ben, did you see the performance (a repeat showing) in which the spectator could not lift his hand from the table and Brown caused the spectator to have toothache simply by touching his cheek all within the same performance piece?

Paul.