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Charlie Justice Inner circle Mount Dora, Florida 1142 Posts 
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I read in Genii where Roberto Giobbi (in his column) states that anyone who thinks they can improve on Vernon is either a fool or a liar.
Coincidently, I've been going through Scams & Fantasies by Ortiz. Ortiz mentions that a particular effect by Vernon (omitted here because that's not what this post is about) is inherently flawed and then goes on to teach his 'improved' variation. The foreward to S&F was written by, you got it, Roberto Giobbi. He had nothing but praise, well deserved mind you, for Ortiz and the material therein and apparently stopped short of making the 'fool or liar' comparison in his foreward or has since then had a change of attitude. In light of some brilliant variations by some of our most talented and reknowned magicians I found his comment to be quite striking. Can Vernon be improved or are those who have done so just fools or liars? |
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-09-05 10:55, Charlie Justice wrote: I would prefer not to cast any aspursions upon either Giobbi or Vernon until I read the context of the statement. Without you giving that, or without reading the column myself, it sounds to me like Giobbi was just complementing Vernon's thoroughness and high standards in a way that was not meant to be taken so literally. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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I agree with with Scorch it all depends on what he means.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts
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I think that a lot of magicians have tried to improve on a Vernon item and really screwed whatever it was up beyond any hope of repair at all. This is not to say that some magicians couldn't or havent made improvements. But for a large portion of magicians it is not such a good idea to try it. I for one would certainly fall flat on My face I am sure.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Maybe he means if you add things to Vernons moves it does not improve them as it can only make them more complex and the aim should be to "Keep it simple" Vernon said that did he not. Are Vernons moves as simple as they can get? If yes then you can not improve on Vernon.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts
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OK- let's look at it the other way. How many magicians out there have claimed to have improved a Vernon effect, only to have completely butchered, confused, or distilled the magic out of it? I'd say a lot more than those who have improved on his handlings. In that light, Giobbi's comment, while sweeping and broad in scope, is mostly accurate. It's possible there are exceptions - and maybe he figured Ortiz's was one of them.
Perhaps an improvement could be adapting the handling or plot slightly, to fit your own personality? I'm sure Vernon would've approved of that.
tjo'
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Charlie Justice Inner circle Mount Dora, Florida 1142 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-09-05 12:53, tommy wrote: Now that makes sense! Good response tommy. Taken that way, then Giobbi's comment becomes more clear. Your clarifying response shed some light on Roberto Giobbi's (possible and likely probable) train of thought on the matter. Thanks for opening the window tommy. |
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Loual4 Special user Montreal, Canada 670 Posts
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In order to improve anything from vernon, you first need to know the effect to be modified inside and out... and then be very familliar and proficient with alternative sleights... And that probably elliminates 90% of magicians! This leaves very few people with technical knowledge and experience capable to make a worthwhile change, nevermind improvement. And this is probably what Giobbi meant, but that is strictly my interpretation. Ortiz and Giobbi are two magicians for whom I have tremendous respect. If they can improve an effect from Vernon, good for them. Personnaly, I am not even going to try. Mastering the effect and presentation is work enough for me!
Louis Jutras |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts
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I would agree that it is very, very difficult to improve on Vernon's work, but saying that it is not possible is hyperbolic at best.
Jon Townsend improved Spellbound by making it possible to perform the changes without changing grips and without your thumb disappearing during the transformations. Is there anyone out there who honestly doesn’t think this is an improvement? There are lots of examples in the literature of people who have improved both the effect and the method of Vernon tricks. Many of them are Vernon students. It’s a poor teacher whose students do not surpass him in some way. |
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1553 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-09-05 10:55, Charlie Justice wrote: Strictly speaking (that is, taken literally) it's a foolish comment -- like any intense absolutist, universal claim. I'm sure Giobbi would qualify his remarks along the following lines: "I find it quite unlikely anyone will improve upon Vernon. We should be predisposed to regard anyone boasting such a feat as a prima facie liar or fool." The principle of charity dictates we should be presidposed to regard Giobbi's comment as more of a rhetorical flourish. That said, the Vernon idolatry is getting out of hand. The cult of personality often impairs an activity's ability to progress. We can only be certain of our perpetual uncertainty. This goes back to Socrates and the beginning of Western philosophy: "All I know is my ignorance." I doubt anyone means to say, "All I know is that Dai Vernon was omniscient." Silliness.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Yiannis Veteran user Chicago USA 349 Posts
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Very good point Cain...
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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Charlie,
Again, what is the context of Giobbi's statement? Is he claiming that it is impossible to improve on ANY Vernon handling? If so it would be an odd statement since he himself has published many versions of Vernon's work where presumably he felt strongly enough about his own additions to feel that they represented improvements on Vernon's originals. Or was he claiming that nobody could improve on the entire body of Vernon's work? On that score, he may have a good point. |
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Ed Oschmann Inner circle Lake Worth FL 1022 Posts
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I am tempted to attribute Mr. Giobbi's remarks as hyperbole or a "rhetorical flourish" as Cain eloquently wrote. However, I'm not completely convinced. Here is the remark in context:
"We will assume that the Kings have been segregated from the deck. Use them in a short but good trick such as Vernon's "Twisting the Aces or Dr. Daley's Last Trick." May I suggest you look up either the original handlings and do it exactly as written-don't use any of the so called "improved" versions (The person who claims to have improved on Vernon or Daley is the equivalent of someone saying he's improved on Beethoven or Mozart-he's either a fool or a liar. Giobbi's didactical comment seems to leave little room for argument. I would love to hear him expound upon this comment, but does it not seem (in Giobbi's opinion)an infallibility? His comparison of Vernon to Beethoven seems to reinforce a dogmatic attitude. He's (Giobbi) is an extremely learned man, so I'd really love to hear an elaboration on his comment. Ed Great thread guys! But I still want to hear what your least favorite card is |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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The original handlings of "Twisting the Aces or Dr. Daley's Last Trick."
are the best versions in his opinion. Keep it simple.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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magicarisimon Regular user Sherman Oaks 116 Posts
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I think that people can improve on Vernon's handling/patter for themselves, but Giobbi's comment had to do with someone improving on the base effect for everyone. There are tons of great variations on Twisting the Aces, but everyone learns the original handling by vernon first. I beleive that no one can improve on the basic handling of Twisting the Aces so that the trick becomes stronger for almost EVERY magician who performs it.
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Paul Sherman Inner circle Arlington, VA 1511 Posts
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Hyperbole
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase
some youtube videos |
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-09-05 23:33, tommy wrote: In that case, it is quite interesting to note that in Card College (volume 1 or 2), Giobbi published a handling of the Twisting the Aces plot, and although it is an excellent effect it certainly does not hold a candle to the original. So maybe Giobbi's statement in the Genii comes by way of experience. |
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sethbek Regular user New York 161 Posts
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Ammar mentions in his Cups and Balls book(or video or both, I forgot which) that Dai Vernon always said to minimize the amount of moves used. Ammar then went on to say that he felt in The Professors Cups and Balls, Dai Vernon could have streamlined his own moves better and the routine seemingly contained extra steps that could have been eliminated by using a different move.
ie: Ammar was saying a way to improve on Vernons routine.
*poof*
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Nick23 Special user England 580 Posts
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I perform a slight modification/improvement of "out of Sight, out of mind".
Probably the biggest flaw in that trick is the possibility of having the thought of card on the face of the deck when showing the cards again. I can’t remember where I learnt it but I read a variation that puts the 3 cards that are normally on the face further down into the deck. I personally think that is a great improvement.
Nothing I do can't be done by a 10-year-old...with 15 years of practice."
-- Harry Blackstone, Jr. |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts
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With respect to Dai Vernon's cups and balls, I think I have improved it in that I made it possible to do surrounded and in bright sun. I have slightly modified the sleights to reduce the possible flashes that might occur. That said, the basic frame work and construction of the routine is the same. With all due respect to Mr. Ammars excellent routine, I feel he missed understanding some of Mr. Vernon's thinking behind the choice of the moves he made. As such, it is not an "improvement" just a variation that some may like more or less than the original. Think of it like a recipe for something that contains garlic, some like a hint, some a lot. Others prefer cumin. Is it a improvement or just a change.
Dai Vernon thought a great deal about the whys and wherefores of his moves. I don't think you can go wrong by following them. However, take them into the context of the time they were created. Think of the sleights known, gaffs available and history about them, as well as the performing conditions. The apply your own performing conditions. I think anyone willing to put in the same amount of work regarding practice, research and awareness could very well improve or develop routines that are liked as much or more than Mr. Vernon's. It is just that most magicians won't do that work. Kirk |
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Posted: Sep 5, 2005 02:55 pm 
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