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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Just to let you know, the Magic Fakers page has had a big update over the last week.
http://www.magicunlimited.com/magic_fakers.htm TIM ELLIS
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Crazy Spots does not belong to Tenyo. Royal Magic had this out during the 1940's. These can occasionally be found on used magic sites.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Interesting. Thanks for the info, I'll check it out! I know Tenyo had quite a few products they copied in their early days before they became one of the most ethical manufacturers. Maybe Crazy Spots was one.
TIM
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
(sigh) I hate to be asking this question - especially of Tim Ellis. My goodness, I owe him such a debt of gratitude for his Runaround Sue DVD. His performance kept my spirits up during recovery from a very difficult surgery lately.
Well, here goes. I was looking at the site and found that Whit Hayden's Golden Shells had been ripped off with the Golden 3 Shell Game. Is that really a rip off? After all, the shell game goes back to antiquity. Should the fact that Whit Hayden created golden shells (sorry Whit) mean that nobody else may? After all, this isn't really an improvement on the effect, is it? It just makes it prettier. If I am wrong then please, don't hesitate to say so. I'm a performer and have a thick skin about criticism. I am as ethical as the next guy but I want to be fair as well. |
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Law New user 94 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-14 12:53, rikbrooks wrote: You're not doing yourself any favors with that statement As for the golden shells, isn't making it "prettier" an improvement? Better visibility for a larger audience maybe? Gets the chicks? Even if it *isn't* an improvement - it was Whit who came up with it, what possible reason is there for someone to copy it if it isn't better somehow? The answer is money - someone saw Whit selling something and decided they wanted a piece of that action, so they copy his idea, cut a few corners on quality, and lowball him. No idea if that's legal or not (probably is) - but to me it seems lower than the dirt stuck to the gum stuck to the bottom of my shoe... |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Oh Law, I understand fully what you are saying. My gut says that it's wrong and I go with my gut, but there's a nagging question that remains.
Besides, what's wrong with doing something solely for money? Why ELSE would you mass produce something? Is it lower than dirt? Probably not. I notice that I use Johnson cups and was happy to pay the higher price. There will always be those that would never pay the price of quality but might pay a lower price and one day splurge for the higher quality once they discover that they like the trick, know what I mean? Someone might not want to spend the money on Whit's and would normally have just gone on about their lives, but they see the cheap set and risk the few bucks to try the trick. Then, having discovered that they love it, eventually save the money for the 'good set'. See what I mean? That happens with cups all the time. they start out with the plastic then aluminum then copper. The next thing you know they have a cabinet full of cups. |
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts |
I am all for ethics, we spent the money to get authorixed and very well built Cube Zags, Origami, The Final Answer, Velocity, etc. However, the whole ethics thing can be taken way too far. If shells existed and any form of metal existed then putting them together which is just a regular shell (no disrespect to the work done by Whit) and a new finish, does not make it proprietary.
There are still some that claim using a duck in your show is unethical. If anyone uses an existing item from another industry outside of magic it does not mean they OWN that and no one else may use it. If someone is copying thier routine, that is a different story. I'm just curious if anyone here, perhaps you Law, shop at Wal Mart. Well they see a product and find someone that make it cheaper (lowball) and buy it from them. Is that alright? That's not ethics, that's capitalism. We do need to have ethics but we also need to keep them in check. Kevin
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Here's an interesting thing I discovered... Tenyo brought out a set of metal shells too. I don't know if they were before or after Whit's.
However, the main test for ethics is "Where did you get the idea?" The shells were a blatant copy of Whit's and aimed to cash in on those who wanted Whit's but couldn't afford it. Just as Losander's table has spurred imitations cashing in on the demand... Losander didn't invent the floating table, though he did make enough significant improvements on it (with Tommy Wonders help) to create new interest in the item. We're aiming, with the Magic Fakers, to keep people informed about where certain ideas came from. We are also very open to being corrected in an effort to create a sort of "database" accessible to everyone. I hope you find it useful and eye-opening. There are very real people behind the trick names in the magic catalogs. TIM ELLIS
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Jerry Mentzer also had shells in various types of pewter with different platings back in the 1970's and 1980's. But the big difference with the Magic Makers product is that they sold the shells with the same name that Whit had estabilshed with his shells. The intent here appeared to be confusion. After all, why should someone pay $100 for a set of shells when he can get it for $35.00? What the people who bought the cheaper shells did not realize was that the Golden Shells by Whit had numerous features that the ones MM had produced did not have.
So the people who thought they were getting a bargain were really losing money. They even tried to copy Whit's pea.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
This issue disturbed my sleep last night. First of all, I NEVER want to be on the opposite side of an issue from Bill. I find that a very tenuous position and I simply won't put myself there unless my ducks are very much in a line. Secondly, I have unending respect for Mr. Ellis. I have an autographed picture of him and his lovely wife in a spot of prominence on my wall just beside my display of eight sets of linking rings.
That Magic Makers used the same name demonstrates culpability in my eyes. This brings me to Mr. Ellis' assertion that it's all intent. Clearly they intended to steal Mr. Hayden's product. Now I feel better for siding with Mr. Hayden as well, another conjurer for whom I have respect. However, I have in the past manufactured and martketed items that were entirely inspired by others that I've seen. The one difference is that I could make them cheaper and therefor offer them cheaper. I speak now of martial arts weapons. Had Mr. Ellis or someone like him called me and asked if I intended to knock-off another weapon and undercut it my response would have been resoundingly affirmative. I am not ashamed of it and feel no guilt. My students needed the weapon and the price was over-inflated due to the rarity of the item. Let me be more specific and perhaps my point will be better taken. There is a staff used in the Japanese art Bojutsu. It comes in various lengths and styles but it is always a long staff. Sometimes one end is tapered and other times both. The tapering provides a little springing action. These staffs, usually made of white oak, ran for about $40 at the time. I found that I could go to a nearby lumber yard and get dowels of the proper length of white oak for about $5 a piece. Then I put them on my lathe and in 5 minutes I would have a perfectly formed Bo staff. I sold them for $20, a price that I thought was horribly overinflated since they cost me $5. I didn't feel guilty. I still don't think that it was wrong. On the other hand though, had the competitors had a unique name on their product like Oyama Fighting Staff I would not have used that name. I would have, as I did, use the traditional name - Bo Staff, which is generic. OK, Mr. Ellis, I agree that product should go on your list. I also agree with you that intent is everything in these cases. Often in American Jurisprudence intent is pivotal. There was a case where a chip manufacturer wanted to market a computer chip that would compete with the Intel chip that was in every computer. I think it was Cyrix or something like that. The manufacturers listed out all the things that the chip does, then they hired Software Engineers and told them to write the code that makes these things happen. They would not let the engineers even glimpse at the competitor's code. When finally they were sued by Intel they brought in their code and demostrated that it was entirely different, different approaches were used altogether. They won because their intent was to compete, a laudable intent, but not to steal. Intent also makes the difference between murder and manslaughter. Mr. Ellis, I think that you spot on when you speak of intent - and if I ever offer something to the magical community and it seems to you to be a knock off just call me. I'll give you my cell phone number if you pm me. |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
As for your weapon making, I certainly feel that you were doing the right thing. You weren't trying to pass off your weapons as something that they were not. Nor were you copying someone's unique design or innovation.
There are many effects in magic that have simply become generic - but I feel it's our duty not to let the creators of these effects be forgotten. Many people know that Joe Karson invented the Zombie, and even though dozens of people are manufacturing zombies without even seeking his consent (or that of his estate if he's passed on) is it too much to ask that they at least credit him somewhere in the instructions? It's only since I started the Magic Fakers page that I learned there was actually an inventor behind the Hopping Halves. That trick didn't just happen or evolve, it was created. As much of a hassle it may be to implement, and it would be better to start now than to put it off even further, it would be great to see products manufactured with the inventors name following the tricks name, and a little note to say whether that particular version of the trick is endorsed or authorised or licensed by the inventor. (EG: Dynamic Coins by Hiroshi Kondo and Shigeru Sugawara [1975]. Licensed to Marvin's Magic) An unauthorised version would simply say (Dynamic Coins by Hiroshi Kondo and Shigeru Sugawara [1975]) I know it's asking a lot for knock-off artists to respect the creators by crediting them, when they show no respect by ripping them off... *g* When I ran my shop, I tried to track down and credit the inventors of everything we had in our catalog. I was only able to credit about 75% of the stuff, but it was a start. It doesn't happen in other industries... you don't have singers not knowing who wrote the song they're performing, or actors not knowing who wrote the play they're performing... well, it RARELY happens (I hope!) And most of the card guys know who invented the tricks or moves they learned from books (and from the DVDs that credit correctly) so why can't it be the same when purchasing props? Magic dealers, feel free to use the Magic Fakers as a starting point and hopefully, as well as educating ourselves, it may just slow down the rate of rip-offs within our industry even if just by 1%... it's much harder to steal someone's property if you know who they are. TIM ELLIS
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
I've tidied up the MAGIC FAKERS page as Rik Brooks suggested (it was getting waaaay to big) and now we've added a YOUR SAY page so you can leave your thoughts on the whole thing too!
TIM ELLIS
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Tim:
I did some tracking down of "Crazy Spots," and came up with this information from Kenna Thompson. During the late 1940's, the 1950's and into the early 1960's, Harry Roydon of South Bend, IN marketed the original version of this under the name "Spooky Spots." Harry was primarily a wholesaler, so many of these were sold through Grant's and other mass magic marketers. But it always had the Roydon name. Tenyo's "Crazy Spots" was a copy of this. I appreciate your efforts to document all of this stuff, and any contributions I might make are in the spirit of contribution, not in the spirit of contradiction. Some effects may seem to be similar when looking at the name, but may be completely different. For example, it is plain to see that Pamela Anderson Lee's "Light and Heavy Chest" does not have anything to do with the effect by Robert-Houdin.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Danny Archer V.I.P. Philly 607 Posts |
Quote:
... Good one Bill! ... |
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WolfgangWollet Loyal user 209 Posts |
While I know that Loftus (Empire) rips off a lot of merchandise the Vault Vision might not be such a case. If I am not wrong than a Hongkong Company bought the injection molds for that trick from Tenyo when sales slowed on this item. Loftus might have bought some in its own packaging from that manufacturer (which would make it an authorized version). I think that this is true for other Tenyo effects listed as copies.
While the intentions of a site like MAGIC FAKERS are good this very example shows the difficulties. Blame is being cast on Loftus as a copy of VAULT Vision which might not be fair.... |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The interesting thing about the Magic Makers Golden 3 Shell Game is that it does not have three of the very important characteristics of the S4S "Golden Shells" that will actually make them work. While it might be possible to do the three shell game with the Magic Makers product, the inner construction of the shells, the edge work and the lack of the proper "exit," make them really unfeasible to work with. They would be great to hand out to people to show them that their theory of how it worked was wrong, though.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Good point Wolfgang. I have written to Loftus several times asking about theses items though... still have no reply from them...
For what it's worth, if they did buy them from Tenyo, they certainly don't have any reference to that or any credits or names of inventors on their instructions. TIM ELLIS
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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Dr. TORA Inner circle TURKEY 1439 Posts |
Dear Tim,
I have noticed one thing in your comparison site: in FISM 2003 we have met a gentleman from the USA. His name was Tim Wenk and he claimed that he was the inventor of "pencil through bill" and has benn copied by many Indian companies.Mr.Wenk said his pencil was ywllow and the most sold copy was black. I have seen the copy one among the "Pen Through Anthing" copies. It was marked by UDAY Magic. In is shown in the unopened package. Would you please check it ? Another thing They have even stolen my stage name and Bill Palmer knows about him. I have sent most of my documents to Bill and he had told about the situation to IBM ( in fact I have done the complaint before and no action has been taken ). After Bill's explanation, nothing again had changed. A guy form Iran had changed his name from "TURA" to "TORA". Everybody thinks that he is me and he is selling all bootleg items in his site and nobody says him "STOP". And everybody complains to me when thet catch me on line or send complaint mails to my email addresses. I am tortally exhausted that he is not me. He is fron Iran and I am from Turkey. Whenever you want to ask him something about this-no matter written or verbal- he pretends he does not understand English well. May be you may recall in the FISM 2003, Amos Levkovich has caught him in the act of selling Amos' famous Vanishing Doves. Amos asked if it was his own invention and he replied yes. He did not even knoww who was the inventor. Can you imagine you invent something and later somebody tries to sell you a bad quality copy of your very own product at a fraction of the original price. I'd better stop here, I may go further if some is more interested in the issue. By the way; let me tell you once more I am not hat guy who copies and sells everything belonging to others. I am even one of his victims... Magically yours.
Magically Yours,
OZLEN TUNCER /Dr.TORA Have you visited my new Website in English, yet? www.magictora.com or www.torasmagic.com |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Thanks Tora, I'll check it out.
TIM
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The reason that TURA could print his name as TORA in English has to do with a peculiarity of how the letters used in Farsi and Arabic are transliterated into English. It's a crying shame how this fellow is allowed to knock TORA off.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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