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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Wandless Cups and Balls?? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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KirkG
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Vandy Grift,

Alas, I miss the ability to talk with Michael. He made magic look like magic, not moves. It would be great to have his take on this. I will clarify one point, I don't necessarily mean a black wand with white tips when I say a "formal" wand. It could be any neat turning of wood or other metals. I haven't seen, or don't strongly remember the tonight show performance. I am sure it was solid, especially if it was from early in his career.

So what do the think the point(pardon the pun) of the knife was?

And of course this is all just opinion, even Michael's. None of us are perfect and even the works of greats becomes the stepping stones of tomorrows magicians. Sometimes it just hold them up and other times it allows them to do greater things. We adapt to changing times and performance conditions and rework old routines as we change as well.

Kirk
Necromancer
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Dennis Loomis' cups and balls routine, which several astute performers have compared favorably with The Professor's, uses no wand.
http://www.loomismagic.com/dlcb2005.html

On the subject of wands, however, here's another opinion: if you regularly use a wand to perform magic in a formal setting -- if your performing conceit is that your magic comes from or is channeled through the wand -- then how could you ever be expected to do magic without it in an informal situation? Seems to me that you can't.

On the other hand, if you want to admit that the wand is a bit of meaningless fiction that only exists to enable you to do things that would otherwise look suspicious, then yes, a butter knife works fine.

But if you're truly a magician, want to be able to do magic wherever you go, and you appreciate the power of the magic wand conceit, maybe you should consider carrying a wand all the time.

Best,
Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!) and the Hands-Off Multiple ESP System ("Quality and design far exceed any ESP cards on the market"-Genii), and contributor to the ebook GOLD: When It HAS To Be Performance GOLD -- all at Penguin.
KirkG
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Big magic needs a wand. Little magic, like a card trick, needs only hands. Smile

Kirk
Vandy Grift
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Kirk,

I think the point of the knife was the same as the teacups and the cherries. He was simulating the classic magicians trick. As if to say (or maybe he actually did say) "the classic magician would do this trick with 3 cups,3 balls and a wand, let me show you how I do it with everyday objects. 3 teacups,3 cherries and a knife for a wand.

That how I see it.

Are you associated with the Magic Castle Kirk? Do they have a video library? They must have this in there. If not I'm sure one of your friends in magic probably has it.

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Michael Baker
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Quote:
On 2005-09-14 16:42, Necromancer wrote:
On the subject of wands, however, here's another opinion: if you regularly use a wand to perform magic in a formal setting -- if your performing conceit is that your magic comes from or is channeled through the wand -- then how could you ever be expected to do magic without it in an informal situation? Seems to me that you can't.

On the other hand, if you want to admit that the wand is a bit of meaningless fiction that only exists to enable you to do things that would otherwise look suspicious, then yes, a butter knife works fine.

But if you're truly a magician, want to be able to do magic wherever you go, and you appreciate the power of the magic wand conceit, maybe you should consider carrying a wand all the time.



In your assertion to define both sides of the fence, please don't forget the possibility that a wand may be necessary for certain tasks, related only to the cause and effect process, and not the subtextual "magicians'" need. Other tasks may not require it. I'm guessing you don't use your TV remote to start your dishwasher.

~michael
~michael baker
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KirkG
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Of course we could follow the charactor ploy, ( I prefer that to conceit) that better magicians don't need wands or even to verbally utter their spells.

So still, why the knife? Does it look cute? What does it add to the routine? Is it only there for the bell like tone when it strikes the cup?

Kirk
KirkG
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Vandy,

I got delayed sending the above post so we overlapped. Yes I belong to the Castle and I will look for the performance.

Kirk
Necromancer
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Hi Michael,

To suggest that some magical tasks may respond to a wand, while other magical tasks may not, is certainly logical. However, even if it isn't too fine a distinction for an audience to follow (which it may be), it's probably not the strongest dramatic choice.

To borrow your analogy: just as I use my TV remote with my television because it enables me to perform nearly all my television-viewing tasks, if I were a magician invested in the premise of wand-as-power-conduit, then I would use a wand for nearly all my magic-casting tasks.

Certainly, there are tasks to which it is ill-suited (it makes a lousy soup ladle, just as the TV remote can't wash dishes). But for focusing magical energies, the wand has been specifically employed for centuries. To characterize it now as merely the "remote control unit" for operating a cups-and-balls effect trivializes its power -- and in turn, may reduce the power of the magic performed in its proximity.

Or don't you agree?

Best,
Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!) and the Hands-Off Multiple ESP System ("Quality and design far exceed any ESP cards on the market"-Genii), and contributor to the ebook GOLD: When It HAS To Be Performance GOLD -- all at Penguin.
Michael Baker
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Quote:
On 2005-09-14 18:07, KirkG wrote:
Of course we could follow the charactor ploy, ( I prefer that to conceit) that better magicians don't need wands or even to verbally utter their spells.


Is this a superiority complex?

Quote:
So still, why the knife? Does it look cute? What does it add to the routine? Is it only there for the bell like tone when it strikes the cup?



Why the knife? If used in the context as laid out above, it is an illustrative bit of symbolism for the magician's wand, in a recreative sense, a reinactment of another event, and not a substitute for the power that emanates from it.

If you shoved a Tootsie Roll into your flashlight, you wouldn't expect it to perform the same as the batteries that it is filling in for. You could however, be illustrating how the batteries fit into the flashlight.

Representative sample: "...This tiny box is your house and my foot is the tornado that might one day flatten it..."

This cannot be that hard to understand.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Michael Baker
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Quote:
On 2005-09-14 18:13, Necromancer wrote:
Hi Michael,

To suggest that some magical tasks may respond to a wand, while other magical tasks may not, is certainly logical. However, even if it isn't too fine a distinction for an audience to follow (which it may be), it's probably not the strongest dramatic choice.

To borrow your analogy: just as I use my TV remote with my television because it enables me to perform nearly all my television-viewing tasks, if I were a magician invested in the premise of wand-as-power-conduit, then I would use a wand for nearly all my magic-casting tasks.

Certainly, there are tasks to which it is ill-suited (it makes a lousy soup ladle, just as the TV remote can't wash dishes). But for focusing magical energies, the wand has been specifically employed for centuries. To characterize it now as merely the "remote control unit" for operating a cups-and-balls effect trivializes its power -- and in turn, may reduce the power of the magic performed in its proximity.

Or don't you agree?

Best,
Neil


This would seem to be reliant upon the character portrayed. While there are some magicians who still strive to do everything in their power to have the audience believe that their magic is real, as has been done for centuries, many magicians offer a more modernistic slant to their performances, to allow for what society has learned over those years. Neither is wrong if used in context.

By your example, trivializing the wand's usage and meaning may damage a performance by certain magicians... agreed... but no more so than would an ill-timed attempt to become heart attack serious in the midst of a comedy show.

Who are we talking about here? Whose show and whose wand?

Credibility comes in many forms.

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Rafael Benatar
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Although I don't use a wand, I have nothing against it. I just started out without a wand and got used to it. Occasionally, since I often customize my presentation for different themes or corporations, I have used a wand in the same routine, with very minor changes, without altering the structure. I love the wand as an object, but I don't miss it when I do without it.
KirkG
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Hi Rafael,

Greetings from the Castle. Aren't you due here soon?

Kirk
blazes816
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I don't use a wand. that's right I finaly got cups. three Uday Chops.
Jonathan Townsend
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If this was the bizarre magic section I'd go on about the symbols and ritual objects.

Instead how about a suggestion. Consider the candle. Not only about the right size but you can light it and use the flame in your presentation. Now if you go all the way and start with balled up napkins, you are set to use flash paper to offer dramatic vanishes on occasion. Perhaps a final load of sombody's watch inside a large napkin ball would work for a final load.

Do as you will. It's your magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mystre71
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Steve Draun doesn't use a wand in his routine. Check out "Draun from Underground".



Best,
Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
Professor Piper
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WOW

Ask a simple question, get a fascinating debate.

This is amazing...

I just got off from 8 hours at the shop (We were REALLY slow today)...I got in a bunch of practice..Juggling, Flourishes (a few minor ones) and some more work on my wandless C&B routine...

I come back and BOOM...Now I HAVE to see this Tonight Show performance!! Where can I see it Online?

Thanks for the interesting read...It is incredible how in depth many of you can go on a simple topic...I mean that sincerely...The road of inquery you travel to back up your thoughts are admirable.

Jonathan...That was one hell of an idea for wadded up paper and a candle switching to flash paper for a grand finale...

May I use it?

Again, wow.

Prof. Piper
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"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
Pete Biro
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Charlie Miller loved to use the white cardboard tube that comes with coat hangars. Check out the length and weight is just right.

I like to use a wand as I use it to hit people on the arm and hands with it doing one of my cup routines.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Mr. Muggle
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Quote:
On 2005-09-13 20:50, Professor Piper wrote:
[...]Does anyone have any source material or clips of performers doing C&B's WITHOUT a wand? [...]


Here are a few more names to add to the list that don’t use a wand (including myself):

Tim Ellis
Tommy Wonder
Al Schneider
Aldo
Paul Gertner
Dan Fleshman
Glen Bishop (?)

Remember that a magic wand is one of our many 'tools' at our disposal. I think that too many of us are afraid to step out of the box and work on the true art of misdirection. To do this we need to learn how to use ALL of the tools that we have at our disposal and not rely to heavily on the use of a magic wand.

Of all the routines out there (of which I have a good collection) I’ve found that most are just rearranged copies of past routines. Sure some have a good final phase or a different sequence of the ‘standard’ moves, but for the most part they are all more or less the same.

A wand isn’t necessary to do the cups and balls- just ask any of those listed above. I think one reason it has been a part of the cups and balls for so long is because it makes the effect so much easier to perform.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2005-09-14 22:46, Professor Piper wrote:
...That was one h*ll of an idea for wadded up paper and a candle switching to flash paper for a grand finale...May I use it?


If it serves you, sure. Enjoy.

All I've ask regarding material from my café posts is that others do not teach it or publish, instead leave the ideas and secrets here so others can find them.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Professor Piper
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Jonathan Townsend wrote:

Quote:
All I've ask regarding material from my café posts is that others do not teach it or publish, instead leave the ideas and secrets here so others can find them.


Sounds like a fine tradition to me...Thank you.

Besides, I think I am VERY far from teaching anyone or publishing anything regarding Magic for a VERY long time.... Smile

Prof. Piper
:juggle:
"Nemo has been found! He was on an Admiral's Platter at Red Lobster!"
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