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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Dorien
To make a comparison is a sort of measuring stick to tell the person how good it is or how bad it is. Is it not helpful to make comparisons? If for example Z is regarded by all experts as the best bottom dealer on the planet is it not helpful to know if people think yours is better than or worse than Zs and why? I think it is helpful to compare but maybe not polite. So my question stands. The only reason I ask is to avoid in future a repeat of what occurred in this thread. Your point is well taken and I understand where your coming from.. I found this interesting: “Historians today consider Abraham Lincoln to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, president of this country. However, that greatness was not evident to all during his lifetime. Lincoln received a large amount of bitter – and often contradictory – criticism.” To his critics Lincoln told a story about a traveler who got caught in a terrible thunderstorm. The night was totally dark and the flashes of lightning provided the only clues to the path. One bolt struck quite close and the crash of thunder brought the man down to his knees. He was not a praying man, but he made a short fervent petition, “Oh Lord! If it’s all the same to you, give me a little more light and little less noise.” “Some one has to stand up and say: “Excuse me, this is crap!” That is a bolt of lightning that sheds little light on the path to follow. Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Yiannis Veteran user Chicago USA 349 Posts |
Tommy,
very good point. In my posts, I referenced the works of other magician's only as a comparison point. And this point was the published videos they have on the market. I don't know them personally, but I have seen their work. By comparing you're establishing standards. For example, in center dealing the standard reference these days would be (in my opinion only) Andrew Wimhurst. I would compare every video I see with his exceptional handling. And I would rate the technique with reference to Wimhurst's technique. The same goes with every other technique in magic and in gambling. And when I find a video that is superior to the current standard, then this becomes the standard and so forth. And to be more specific in the greek deal and with no disrespect to anyone, up to now Jason England's was the best greek deal I had witnessed. But my standard changed when I saw Alan Halcon's deal. Of course, this is only my opinion which is limited by the fact that I haven't seen everything that there is out there. That's why I cannot be absolute in my opinion. As far as absolutes are concerned, of course they exist for some people but not for me. I don't believe in absolutes, except perhaps for one (this is due to my heritage as Greek). Criticism I believe should be constructive. If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all. If you are asked to say something, try to be politically correct without being false. |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-10-02 10:09, tommy wrote: Nice little story. Saying “Excuse me, this is crap!” is just noise. The light only comes with constructive replies. |
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
I think that Paul Chosse has set a very hard task in requesting ideas for criteria on how to constructively criticise. It is a bit like trying to define what makes a good teacher and a good student. Criticism, however well intentioned will always have a hard edge to it. Its precisely this edge that makes it so valuable assuming the student is receptive to it. Trying to differentiate constructive critisism from something else is also hard. It often involves having a belief in oneself and the emotional maturity to receive and reflect on what is truly helpful to the art and what is not. I am sure some criteria or rather guidelines can be formulated but its not going to be too easy and I'm sorry to say I cannot think of any useful ones at the moment.
One thing I find odd is that the star of the Magic Castle, Dai Vernon, was known for being outspoken and highly critical as well as deeply appreciative of excellent card technique. It seems strange and disappointing to me that this tradition may not have endured at the Castle. Regards, Paul H |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Yes Jazz, it is just noise, that is what meant to say thanks.
Regrettably, I am not innocent of making noise myself at times. Turning to another point: I think it would be fair for critics of filmed stuff, to say “This is how it is done” and then to show a film of “themselves” then we could see rather than hear that they know what they are talking about. “Originality (Skill) is something that is easily exaggerated, especially by authors contemplating their own work.” (John Kenneth Galbraith) “Skill” inserted by me. I use these quotes not to make myself sound smart as I am aware that: “The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot.” (Salvador Dali) - Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dorian Rhodell Inner circle San Francisco, CA. 1633 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-10-02 10:09, tommy wrote: Tommy I understand the point you are trying to make but I think you are missing one fine point. You stated that, "Historians today consider Abe Lincoln to be the greatest..." But those historians are also, most likely, experts in their field. It's one thing to have an opinion. It's an entirely different matter to be able to give constructive criticism on a subject a person might not really understand. Best, Dorian Rhodell |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I am possibly an idiot. Thanks.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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halcon Loyal user 251 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-10-02 14:51, Dorian Rhodell wrote: Dorian this is not true at all. regardless of the experience of the person giving the criticism, there is always something to be learned. while I do appreciate the critique from the members of this board I find the critique from someone less experienced more important. why? it is those less experienced people who I am doing this for, "the lay audience". I learn more from a lay person saying "I saw how you did that" than from some expert watching out for it. I guess I screwed up by not dealing the cards as one would around the table and greeking out the cards face down. while we are on the subject of experts. what is the criteria for someone being recognized as an expert? published works? the people they hang out with? years of experience? someone saying they are? if I fool Ken Krenzel with the pass does that make me an expert with it? yes there are certain card guys I see as experts, others may not agree. in another side of my life people see me as an expert in a certain field, people with less experience than me. I have to tell you I have still learned from them. they have taken what I taught them and breathed new life into it. all I am saying is no ones opinion is less important than the other's but then again that's my opinion. quite honestly it doesn't bother me what others may think of my greek deal, there is always room for improvement. I am surprised that the one glaring fault I knew of was only pointed out by Rawdog, the dead thumb. perhaps since the others didn't call me out on it they are not experts, therfore their input doesn't matter. everyones opinion is valuable! Halcon |
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Yiannis Veteran user Chicago USA 349 Posts |
I completely agree with Tommy and Halcon. Couldn't say it any better.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I think that is a great point one which Jason alluded to when he said I can almost always see when it is not coming from the top.
I am not an expert cardguy but I have watched cards being dealt at the table hour after hour night after night for the last 40 years and it did not look too bad to me, even though it did not look perfect. That was watching it one time, for what it is worth; What stood out to me as suss was the odd movement of the wrist. It did not look natural to me. I could not explain what I mean but I assure you I would instinctively know there was something wrong if I saw it at the table and would not have burn the hands to know it was moody. Hope that helps. Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Let me get this straight.
We’re going to develop a set of criteria for criticizing works in progress because some people have a hard time being tactful? It’s true. People are difficult; they seem to have so many motives for what they do. Sometimes they want help, other times they want your attention, or to share an idea – of course the rudest of all are those people who want you to give them praise for what they’re doing! I’ve got two kids like that! So difficult… I’ve stopped going to magic meetings because all THEY do there is socialize and talk about magic, and most of the stuff I see stinks! Why do they go? Can it be just for the camaraderie? They all act so nice to each other, reminds me of Church. It’s just too hard being nice to these people. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, I want to be liked, but I’ve got my reputation to think about – I’m hard-nosed! I think staying home is for the best. I had an idea awhile back. I guess it’s kinda like a criteria. What if all the resident experts – like myself - were to wear signs that said, “Warning: All magic enquiries will be taken as serious.” I’m not going to take credit for this one – I saw a similar sign in the airport. It was about bombs; you couldn’t joke about them. I wouldn’t have to worry about the social graces; I’d have given fair warning! These signs could be equipped with flashing lights and a bell – like they put on cats – so people could see us coming and clear out. Not a bad idea, eh? ... Now about this Greek deal post. What does he mean when he says he wanted to “share” a clip with us? “Share” I don’t get it! Does he want criticism, or praise, or does he think he’s doing us a favor? How am I to take this? I need criteria! Where’s my sign! A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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asper Veteran user 364 Posts |
At my magic club, about 2-3 people can actually do magic. Everyone else just comes for the free food or to complain.
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Which do you do Asper? Eat or complain?
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
At http://www.magicvideodepot.com any member can give opinion but only certain members can rate them. What the criteria is for allowing those certain members to rate them, I am not sure.
They typically rate the videos thus: Rated (/10) by 3 member(s): Originality: 7.5 Presentation: 8.33 Wow factor: 8.33 Technique: 8.67 Overall: 8.44 It appears to me that what some are saying here is: And now for something completely similar.?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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asper Veteran user 364 Posts |
Complain about the food, of course.
Quote:
On 2005-10-05 09:19, Vandy Grift wrote: |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
What is the fare at your regular meeting?
We have chips, and little donut thingys, coke and diet coke and diet lime coke, and sometimes sprite and orange. It costs $2, and isn't very healthy. A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
“This one time I was in a convenience store, and guy came up and asked me, "What's the score?" and I said, "What is the game? If it's a competition between me and you, and the object is to ask the other guy questions he doesn't give a **** about, then you are winning, one to nothing.”
Mitch Hedberg
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
LOL!!!
Perhaps we should move this to another forum while I go change my pants! A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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JohnG V.I.P. 372 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-10-06 23:29, Alewishus wrote: Yes, you should move this to another forum.
John Guastaferro
Website: www.MagicJohnG.com Facebook fan page: www.facebook.com/MagicJohnG Twitter: twitter.com/johngmagic YouTube: www.youtube.com/johngmagic Email: johnGmagic@mac.com |
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asper Veteran user 364 Posts |
Lately, we haven't had much food. But the magic has gotten better. It seems that those who concentrate on running meetings with lots of food are just fat ***** who know jack about magic and just like to use magic club money on food.
But it would be cool if we had some water. Most magicians are fat enough, we don't need all of that junk. Quote:
On 2005-10-06 20:36, Alewishus wrote: |
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