That would be an extreme example. And I wouldn't do that at all if I were doing a three cup routine. I think the Vernon routine, with its minor flaws, and there are a couple, has the right balance between preliminaries and loads.

But if he had put in a whole series of elevator moves -- I mean five or six variations -- a galloping post sequence -- color changing balls -- expanding balls, where they change sizes twice before the final loads -- a couple of "click" vanishes -- the routine would take too long.

Even though many people have used this routine as the point of departure, it only takes watching the performance from the Magic Circus to snap one back into perspective on the routine.

I think Bill has the right idea about balance -- a good balance between the "preliminaries" and the final loads. You can only ascertain this by performing over and over, and watching the reaction you get.

I also agree that shorter is usually better. Like the old saying goes, "leave 'em wanting more." I have found from working at street fairs that most people's attention span is pretty short; they don't want to spend ten minutes watching the same trick. If your C/B routine lasts too long, they will be bored instead of mystified.

For example, I have a three-phase Svengali Deck routine that I really liked. But it was too long, and I could see that people were getting antsy. So I cut out the middle, which reduced it by about 30%. Now I do one-third more demos, sell 30% more decks, and the people just as impressed, if not more so.

My C/B routine is also fairly streamlined. I do one tip-over move, the 2-0-2 sequence, a cup-thru-cup flourish, and a Galloping Post penetration that sets up the final loads. That's it, and it seems to work well for me. SETH

Perhaps I don't disagree with Mr. Palmer nearly as much as it appears. I, too, loathe repetition. None of my moves repeat the others. I also don't perform the same effect with different means.

In other words, I repeat no effects. The spectators see a different thing each time.

Repetition is deadly. I don't use every move that I know, although sometimes I'll use a slightly different move to achieve an effect. Sometimes I use the Vernon Wand spin and sometimes I'll use a retention pass instead. Sometimes I don't use a wand at all, other times the wand never hits the table.

Still, my routine is 3-5 minutes long. If I put every move that I know into a routine it's 15 minutes. I've never performed that routine (although I practice it just so that I don't get rusty with any of the moves that I don't often do.)

REPETITION is the Mother of Revelation....

thanx my good magi for all your help...

The exception I would make to repetition would be in the context of juggling. If you are juggling, the audience needs to see at least three complete cycles of an idea for it to sink in.

The worst idea a juggler can have is the belief that he has to chatter all through the routine -- "This is a shower, this is a cascade, this is a ..."

Juggling groups can either be exciting and innovative, like the Karamazov's, or hypnotic, soporific and booooorrrrrriiiiiinnnnnnggggg.

I've seen some jugglers that held me spell bound.

When I speak of repetition I speak of repetition in a performance, not in practice. I also don't mean repetition of a move but of an effect. There are several ways to do the 2-0-2. There are several different sleights and handlings. I would never do a 2-0-2 as in the Vernon routine then do it the way Dennis Loomis does it in the same performance, even if I wedged different phases in between. As Mr. Palmer pointed out, one 2-0-2 is the same as any other to the spectator, no matter WHAT the mechanics of the move are.

So have I. Anthony Gatto is incredible. At Magic LIVE!!! last year, they let him open a show. Big mistake. He is not an opening act. Nobody can follow him.

At the Magic Circle Centenary celebration, they had a five person juggling group that did a beautiful routine. It lasted 15 minutes. Five minutes would have sufficed. Their movements were beautiful. The clubs reminded me of ocean waves. The waves reminded me of my bed. ZZZZZZZZZ.

Many people think that they don't have any repitition in their routines because they do it a different way each time. If you do a false transfer, then a french drop, either way the ball disappears, and that is all that the audience cares about.
I once changed my entire routine, or so I thought. I changed how I accomplished each thing, I loved "my new" routine. I performed it for and audience that already saw me do the cups and balls. they didn't know what I changed.

that being said, I do various techniques to load the balls, and vanish them, but in the end, everything looks the same.

This is an interesting thread with some people very qualified to comment on the topic.

However, I always chuckle when I read on the Café that your should never do this, and your should always do that, and this is right and that is wrong. Magic is one of the performing arts. ARTS. As soon as you say that something must be done a certain way, along comes a creative artist that breaks that rule and gets away with it.

Repetition is a strange thing. Beginners are told never to repeat a trick. We all understand why. But along comes Renee Levand and he does the trick with the three bread pellets and the tea cup and repeats it 17 gajillion times. It should be boring. We should be figuring it out. But somehow it not only works but it's a thing of beauty for him. "I can't do it any slower." As you are fooled and impressed by the trick, you also know in your bones you are in the presence of a gentleman. We're fascinated by the mystery of the bread crumbs... but we're more fascinated by the man.

Bill, I'm glad to hear someone else point out that there are some "flaws" in the Vernon routine. My theory is that he put it together early in his life and just stuck with the same routine. I believe he would have made some changes to improve the "naturalness" if he had ever had a reason to.

Thanks to Taliesman for the kind words about my own little cups routine. In there, after I teach the particular moves you need to do my routine, I say: "Learn to do the moves first. Because once you've learned them, you may wish to create your own routine."

That might be the best piece of advice in the book.

Try to remember, a beautiful piece of equipment does not entertain the audience. A clever series of moves does not entertain the audience. Even being surprised and fooled does not necessarilly entertain an audience. An ENTERTAINER entertains the audience. Make being an entertainer your main goal.

Denny Loomis

Bravo Dennis! Well said. Folks sometimes take "the arts" too serious for their own good. The "arts" were meant as a way of stress releif and something to have fun with. As with milk, the cream will rise to the top. These few people are the true and rare artists of their craft. For others, it's an enjoyable path through life. By the way, your C&B routine is very good and you are dead on with your comment about entertaining.

Snidini

I hate to be a 'me too' kind of guy but Mr. Loomis' cups and balls routine is one of the best purchases that I've ever made. No, I don't do the routine, but I simply love the 'freshness' of some of his moves.

I believe that when studying any of the classics, the student should obtain as much information available on the subject first. Then he or she should read all of it. Absorb it. Watch the videos. Don't even try to practice at first. Just enjoy what you find.

Then start with a basic routine. Learn it so thoroughly that you can do it as easily as you draw your breath.

Then start working on variations.

Just ordered the Ammar, both vols.

does he deal with the combo set at all? if not, its no worries, but just wondering.

Baba

No, just the standard cups.

Baba, if you like the combo cups as I do then I would still suggest the Ammar source but also check out the Mendoza routine. I don't use the whole routine but he has a couple of series there that are just so smooth and choreographed that they are a work of art.

Nice, thanx! wonder where to get his book??? sounds interesting..

I load the third cup almost immediately...then I do a 2 cup (one chop) routine, and load the others as the moment presents itself...

simple, and killer...

You can get the Mendoza routine (with the sequel) for $5 (Canadian, I think that's about 25 cents or so) from Morrissey Magic

http://www.morrisseymagic.com/morrissey_books4.htm

It's only a short booklet, but you are only paying $5, about what I spend for lunch each day. Usually you get what you pay for. In this case I disagree. You will get a lot more than $5 of value from this. I would have been satisfied at $25, maybe $30. I think I would have felt ripped off at $50 but I'm not sure.

Some of the moves are a permanent part of my routine - how much is that worth?

Thanx so much Rik, youve been EXTREME amounts of helpful!!

I really appreciate it brother...

To Snidini and rikbrooks,
Thanks so much for your kind comments on my Cups Book and routine. It's gratifying when your work is appreciated by those you respect.

Best to all,

Denny Loomis

Guys, this is certainly an interesting and informative thread. May I input my two cents worth? And believe me, with my experience, that's exactly what you get- two cents worth! Anyway, I decided that I wanted to focus my magic on learning a nice cups and balls routines. In my opinion, magic that you can perform with an object that you can literally hand out for examination beforehand, to me is more magical. The first purchase that I made was the Michael Ammar Complete Cups and Balls BOOK. Alas, I found that I was better suited to learning via the dvd, so I decided I needed something else. That led me to the 25 Tricks with Cups and Balls. Now I must say that I am an extreme amateur, to say the least. My public performances consist of doing fall and Valentine parties for my kids at their elementary school. I found the routine that Troy Hooser did on the 25 tricks tape to be quite sufficient for me. Not too terribly difficult, not too lengthy, and entertaining. There are also quite a lot of other moves on the dvd that are quite suitable for beginners. And the price was right. Everytime I watch it I keep expecting to hear Rod Roddy yell, "Come on down!" But back to the dvd, the material was great for me to build on and learn from and the price was great. A lot of stuff for a little money. I still have it, as a matter of fact.

Then I wanted to expand and so I purchased the Stevens Teach-In C&B dvd. The routines on it were nice. I like the Ammar routine, and please forgive me, but I forget the man's name that did the cups and balls with the sponge balls. White-haired fellow that wore glasses. That routine was the best on the dvd, in my opinion. However, while it was a nice dvd, man, I didn't have time to master any 'Vernon wand spins', or anything like that. I simply don't have time for the practice, sad to say. Job?Yes. Kids?Yes. Extracurricular activities?Yes. Wife?Absolutely. Time for Mark to practice magic?No. So, in my opinion, and this again, is a magical novice with big dreams, okay? The 25 Tricks with the Cups and Balls is GREAT for a beginner. Heck, it would take some time just to master the few basic moves they teach on that. So, consequently, I sold the Stevens dvd, and the Ammar book is now for sale here on the Café, and it is still available, if anyone reading this is interested. I love watching people perform the Cs & Bs. I'm just not sure if I want to invest in another dvd that will have a good routine but will require me to learn things that I simply don't have time to learn at this point in my life.

It sounds like there are some great performance dvds out there. If you guys could give me some ideas, that would be great. I would be interested in checking them out. I hope that my opinion on these dvds is appreciated. I wasn't trying to disagree with anyone, I just wanted to point out that for a beginner, the 25 trick dvd can be a valuable starting point. And, hey, maybe some day, when and if I have the time, my magic will get better. It's like I tell my children about their piano, trombone, clarinet and violin lessons, if you want to be good at it, you have to practice. A LOT! Unfortunately, dad doesn't have that much practice time to spare for himself!

This website is great and I appreciate all of your opinions and ideas. They have helped me tremendously. Talk to you all later.

Mark