Just seeking to further my study on the subject of C&B.

I love to use them, though an Elder Mage told me he felt that they were a "shortcut" of sorts, and not as valuable as the standard.

what are the pros and cons? I know ultimately, its a matter of opinion, so I want to hear them.

cheers.

It depends on the combo cups. Some are elegant. The Sherwoods and the RnT II cups are well concealed. I don't think Jim Riser has made any, but if he used the principle he uses in his chop cups, they would be great. Van Dokkums are excellent, as are the Johnson cups.

The disadvantage to most of them, though, is that the gaff can be easy to see. If you can spot the gaff by looking into the cups, you may have a problem. It also takes some getting used to tracking the ball.

However, you can always use just the straight balls with them and they function like a normal set.

I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing that sets of "combo" cups came into fashion only after Al Wheatley's Chop Cup was marketed. If so, it seems to me these combo cup sets are gilding the lily, as they say. I'm sure Bill Palmer could fill us in with more details about this.

Yes, it's true you can perform certain effects with a combo set that you can't perform easily with an ungaffed set of cups. And I have nothing against a gaff that can make your life easier. But in this case, it seems to me that the gaff is almost more trouble than it's worth, especially when the sleights and moves needed to duplicate the gaff are not that difficult.

Finally, with an ungaffed set, the specs can always handle and inspect all the props without fear of detection. For all of these reasons, I would tend to favor the straight sets over the combo ones. SETH

Bill missed the Johnson cups! Usually you have to buy a standard Johnson set (3 cups) AND THEN a Johnson combo cup to go with it. The single cup is indistinguishable from the set.

About the cons. Well, as Bill mentioned, in the cheaper cups you can see the gaff. That's bad. Solution - get a good set. On the other hand, some will tell you that they 'lose' the chopped cup. Solution - get a better routine. Others will tell you that they lose the gimmicked ball. Solution - a different colored thread running through the covering or touch a sharpie to the spot where the crochet gathers.

About the pros. You can do some things that you can't do with a normal set of cups. You have the flexibility of using them without taking advantage of the gaffed cup or with. It's your option.

My advice is that if you can't afford a good set of cups then stick with the straight cups until you can. Better yet, buy a set of Johnsons and later buy the chopped cup alone.

I recently acquired a copy of a book called "Arcade Dreams" which features a slew of non-card tricks developed by Ed Marlo, using the smaller , "beginner" props that are availble from most magic stores. In this book is a VERY cool chapter on doing a C&B routine using THREE chop cups, rather than a combo set. Marlo's thinking was that if your gonna use a gimmick, why not go all the way ? If you haven't seen this book, I highly recommend it.

Mark Pettey
Naples, FL

I recently acquired a copy of a book called "Arcade Dreams" which features a slew of non-card tricks developed by Ed Marlo, using the smaller , "beginner" props that are availble from most magic stores. In this book is a VERY cool chapter on doing a C&B routine using THREE chop cups, rather than a combo set. Marlo's thinking was that if your gonna use a gimmick, why not go all the way ? If you haven't seen this book, I highly recommend it.

Mark Pettey
Naples, FL

If you used 3 chop cups you would still come into problems. There is a smiple way around this of course, it just needs a little thinking. A set of 3 chop cups is going to cost a little bit of money if you want a decent set; Johnson chop cups go for about $80 apeice (give or take).

Not a bad price unless you already have a set of mid range cups.

THREE chops!!! LMAO! cheaters! LOL

then again, it would be so amazing to the layman, that you could potentially make you money back busking for all the cash you spent on THREE chops!!

I like the idea, but ill stick to one..maybe two someday...

I have a problem with 3 chopped cups. One of the moves that I really like would prove impossible. I'm couching my language appropriately here to avoid exposure.

The effect is that I place a ball atop a cup that is mouth down on the table. I place another cup atop that, pause, raise the cup that I just placed atop the original cup and the ball is gone. Raise the cup that was on the table and the ball is seen to have penetrated.

Because the gaff on the original cup would be effective from the outside of the cup as well as the inside, the move would not work.

Other than that three chopped cups could prove very interesting and you could come up with a very original routine.

I just love that move too much though.

In the late eighties I bought a set of Mikame Craft wooden cups. There were 3 "chopped" cups and they are beautiful!
There were no real routine supplied, though, and I played around with them quite a bit. One of the things I came up with was the same effect as yours.
It worked about half the time, but not concistently. I kinda solved it by lifting the top cup first, and if the ball was still there, I'd do a Charlie Miller-move. Not as clean, but an acceptable "out", I guess.

Bjørn

A big con is the sound! If you tap your cups the cc does not ring as good as the normals!

Johnson cups are expensive. I don't tap them so I wouldn't know.

I have a cheaper set of cups and if you look hard you can see the gaff. So I don't let anyone look at it. Never been a problem and noone ever has said anything.

Set the Johnson Cups and their Chop Cup on a close-up pad, mouths up. Tap each one on the rim with a pencil. They'll all ring like bells, including the Chop Cup. Mine have such a consistent tone I can't even tell which is which by ringing them. Of course I know where each one is during the routine, but if they get out of order when I'm cleaning them or while practicing, I need to pour the balls in and out of them to locate the Chop Cup.

The Johnson cups have a great ring to them. I've found a different ring depending on the wand that you use.

If only Johnsons came in copper.........