Hi everyone.
Here's a question that has been plagueing me for a while. Many top class, high rate performers of both magic and mentalism have done shows for large corporations eg.Coca Cola, McDonalds.

At any point in your career, have you turned down an offer from a company or organisation that you believe is immoral or unethical in practise or nature, or that you sinmply do not wish to be associated with?

Thanks very much for any replies, Tom.

That's a good question Tom. I have not been offered a show from any large (or small) corporation, intstitution or other group that I had a problem with, so I have never had to make that decision.

I have turned down shows in areas that I do not feel comfortable in. Most recently an evening show at a shopping mall in a very high crime area where there are regular shootings.

All the best,

Rob

Tom, just a hypothetical, and don't read anything into this, but would you work for the British government?

Maybe the Bush-family????? .....Hey that was a joke!!!

But to get serious. It really is a good question indeed. IMO it was good idea that Tom started this thread so we all consciously can think about this.

So I guess that there is something between performing or taking down a show. Would there be a situation where you would take down the show at first but then make conditions under which you would be ready to perform?

IMO it depends on the situation and time.
Looking forward reading others opinions to this.

Regards
Thomas

Yes, absolutely.
I've no intention of naming mames obviously but I've been approached myself on a few occassions and ended up with such a problem and I know at least four other people in this crazy game that have rejected offers for this reason.

Don't want to end up moralising, but yes, it's something that's cropped up!

I've never been in such a position, but there are a few things that come to mind, first I have to "tip my hat to those wo won't comprmise their princibles etc....." but here in the UK Millions of people protested against the war in Iraq, but the goverment still did what they wanted (or what Georgie wanted...?)as well as the many who have protested against big companies like Maccie D's to no avail.......do you think that by turning down a gig it would have have that much of an effect?, it may do once you (or I) reach the fame of the likes of Bono etc.....now a "star" could make a big fuss! but again that does't mean a difference.

The other thing to think about, is when your in this game fulltime, you have to ask yourself, can I really afford to turn work away? after all this is the Job I've decided to do, and this is what "puts the food on the table" so to speak.

Another thing just come to mind, Luke, I'm sure you could have used this to do some good, with your style of performance many positive seeds could have been planted don't you think? maybe?.

Like I said, it's not happened yet, but I'd have to think carefully about "not cutting one's nose off to spite ones face" so to speak........

Just a few thoughts.

Dave

Dave, whether a march, strike or turning down a show will affect what an individual, govt. or company will do is irrelevant - it is the principle, I believe.

Brian - I think as a UK citizen (or Subjects of the Queen, to be accurate), I think I alrady do; pumping in money to the govt and to the Royals with everything I buy, I am currently at college being educated to provide an intelligent workforce. Any taxes taken from our earnings go to the govt, so thus, argueably, we're all working for the govt.

Thanks for posting fellas, I'd like to hear the views of some more uber successful people on here who do work for the big names.

Cheers, Tom.

Tom,

whilst I respect your view, remember pride come befoe a fall, and the princible is weather to put food on the table or not.............

And again how many of our "wonder words" can affect change from within?, but how can "they" hears us if we don't rise to the challange or are part of a screaming crowd?.

Best,

Dave

Perhaps a different tact on the matter will help some.

Given the chance to sell your wares in the house of the enemy, perhaps you could ensure that some germs of thought are transmitted along with your usual fare of quality entertainment.

It's amazing how a turn of phrase, a choice of colors or a parellel construction of argument can later lead to larger turns of thought.

Go get em!

Or you can go back to the old line of reasoning... Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer...

I've done a fair amount of corporate work over the years, but continue to turn down offers from Tobacco Companies.

- entity

I think entity and I see eye to eye on this.

Well done,Sir. Tom

Is McDonald's all that bad? No one is forced to buy the food, unlike a government which forces tax payment on pain of jail. No one is forced to work there, and work there is a jolly sight better than conditions in many, many industries. I honestly feel that the negative press is a bit overhyped.

If McDonald's were as dreadful as some make it out to be, it wouldn't be in business.

Just MHO. I speak as one who has spent considerable years in West Africa, and seen that any one of millions would be ecstatic to be emplyed in McDonald's conditions.

Corporations are profit-driven, but that isn't necessarily evil.

I sort of work for McDonald's.
I go there and wear a sign that reads, "Magician. Will vanish for food."
So far, I've been paid 4 large cokes, 6 orders of fries and a Big Mac.
Peace,
Parson

Of all the companies to hammer on, why would you go after a company that has put so much back? Specificaly the Ronald McDonald House ( http://www.rmhc.org/rmhc/index.html ). These guys do more good for more people that really need it than any other for profit corporation that I can name. I know we can say that people are getting fat on fast food, lord knows I am far from skinny. But on the other hand, I have never and would never blame my current weight on McDonalds. There is only one person responsible and that is me. I just read in the paper over here in Ireland, where they sent a 73 year old retired social worker to jail (as in PRISON) in the UK for failing to pay 53.71 pounds Sterling in council taxes. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4280040.stm And we thought that Debter Prison... In the state of California they will take your house after you failed to pay your property taxes for five years, but that is really the last thing in the world that counties in CA want to do.

I'm not a professional, and probably will never be one, so this is easy for me to say, but I'd like to think that I would have the courage of my convictions and refuse to work for a company, organization or cause that I didn't believe in.

I wonder whether making such a stand could actually work in your favor? If you refuse to work for certain patrons, and if that is generally known, is it possible that you might get more work "for the opposition"?

I have very high principles generally, (too high some might say), so Id like to think if the situation arose my principles would stand.

The thought occurs to me however that in the position of putting food on the table I am sure there are some who would feel principles had to be put aside to 'feed the family', and in some ways, you have to accept that when a family is involved, that CAN happen! It doesn't mean to say the principles aren't there. Perhaps its just that the 'ethical clash' isn't the top priority. Im not saying its right or wrong _ just passing a comment

Once magic/mentalism becomes the mainstay and you have the luxury of choosing which gigs you take on, then principles are easy to hold AND to display.

If you are in the spotlight - one of the famous names in mentalism - it benefits you to be SEEN to be standing by principles (looks good?) - not least in the eyes of your fellow magicians and mentalists??

I suppose we would all like to think we WOULD stand by our principle in such circumstances. I certainly would like to think that I would, but Ive seen better men than me struggle at such a hurdle!

'walk a day in that man's shoes...?'

Best

ML x

Magician2000,

http://www.movimentgraffitti.org/pressrel/example2.php?subaction=showfull&id=1117443139&archive=&start_from=&ucat=6&

(just the first site after googling the words 'unethical' and 'McDonalds')

Much more informative information or you to find.

Tom

Here is a complete qote from the site. This site is strictly opinions, and not fact. And IMHO what I think is totaly unrealistic.

I have never seen anyone force a customer to eat at McD's. Have you? We all eat things that are not good for us. If you put it in your mouth then you are to blame for what you look like. That would be like attacking a brewery for saying that the beer gave them a beer belly. Let's take a bit of personal responsibility here... I could see if they advertised that the food would make them slim, and there was some type of false advertising. I would not eat there 7 days a week, but to have a meal there once or twice a month is not going to give me a heart atack. If my personal condition was that where it would then I would forgo enjoying a quarter pounder with cheese, until, I look at it as a treat every once in a while.


I would agree that when they used to use styrofoam packaging that was ecologicaly iresponsible, but when public opinion was voiced, if I remember correctly they switched to bio-degradable paper products for their wrapping.


This is a business model that ensures that the customer does not wait more that "X" amount of min for their food. If the time waited was too long, the customer base would go down, and stores would go out of business and people would be unemployed.


This is why they are a fast food outlet and not a sitdown and order your food type of restaurant.


Just about every company selling a product these days generates waste. In my last visit to McD's with the exception of a straw and the packets for the catsup, everything I thru away was paper. Now I agree that they do sell salads (probably not a lot) and ice creams that are served not non recylable containers. Should we go after Dairy Queen the same way? (I hope not... I do love their deserts) And if I ate there everyday I am sure that it would be just as unhealthy. Why are they not being targeted? (NOTE: I am not advocating boycotting Dairy Queen, unfortunatly there is non in Ireland at the moment)


I am finding these numbers and statements I am unable to veryify with documented evidence. If you could provide an independent source for this infomration I would appreciate it. McD's contributes to a great many charities, including one they started, and run that really is aimed at those that are in dire financial crises. (Ronald McDonald House)


There were problems in 3rd world countries long before McD's was even a thought in Ray Croc's mind. Long before he was born even. Does this refer to the cheap (I mean quality definitly not price) of the kids meal trinkets that are included in the meal. If that is the case, should we in the US live like we did hundreds if not thousands of years ago. I appreciate that in 1905 the average life expectancy in the U.S. was 47 years, and by 2002 it has jumped to 77. Maybe we should take all the money that large comanies make that has gone in to the research that made this possible, and put it into something else. Maybe in some third world countries where there is no viable form of government, they are also to blame too...


So are the fruits and salads also poison, is the option for the kids meals to get fruit instead of cookies also poison. Get real, it is the individuals responsibilty for what they eat, except in the case of the children, where that responsibility lies with the parents... Growing up, I can remember my Mom cooking many a family meal, and it was the rare treat to get Pizza, Hogies (it is a Philly term for subs), Cheese Steaks, or McD's. 90-95% of my child hood meals would have been home cooked.
I can't say that is the case with me right now, but I am working on it. If you want to eat healthy, go to the store, shop, and prepare it yourself. Treat yourself occasionaly, but eating 90-95% of your meals in places like McD's will kill you, I doubt if it will if you go the other way around.



Everyone is entitled to there own opinions, I just gave mine, but the way this particular web site is presented, they state opinion as Gospel fact, which is wrong.

Thank you for taking the time to read my rant. McD's as a company returns a lot to the countries that are host to them. The next time you want to hear someone slam them, ask the person the motivation behind the attack. They are a big company, and are an easy target. I don't see anyone one attacking BK, KFC, Taco Bell, and the list go on and on. Why is it McD's? (NOTE: I have never, ever, ever, did I say ever worked for McD's or any of its subsidaries) I just think that it should be looked at objectively.

McDonald's spend well over $2 billion every year worldwide on advertising and promotions, trying to cultivate an image of being a 'caring' and 'green' company that is also a fun place to eat.

Children are lured in (dragging their parents behind them) with the promise of toys and other gimmicks. But behind the smiling face of Ronald McDonald lies the reality - McDonald's only interest is money, making profits from whoever and whatever they can, just like all multinational companies. McDonald's Annual Reports talk of 'Global Domination' - they aim to open more and more stores across the globe - but their continual worldwide expansion means more uniformity, less choice and the undermining of local communities.

PROMOTING UNHEALTHY FOOD McDonald's promote their food as 'nutritious', but the reality is that it is junk food - high in fat, sugar and salt, and low in fibre and vitamins. A diet of this type is linked with a greater risk of heart disease, cancer, diabetes and other diseases. Their food also contains many chemical additives, some of which may cause ill-health, and hyperactivity in children. Don't forget too that meat is the cause of the majority of food poisoning incidents. In 1991 McDonald's were responsible for an outbreak of food poisoning in the UK, in which people suffered serious kidney failure. With modern intensive farming methods, other diseases - linked to chemical residues or unnatural practices - have become a danger to people too (such as BSE).

EXPLOITING WORKERS Workers in the fast food industry are paid low wages. McDonald's do not pay overtime rates even when employees work very long hours. Pressure to keep profits high and wage costs low results in understaffing, so staff have to work harder and faster. As a consequence, accidents (particularly burns) are common. The majority of employees are people who have few job options and so are forced to accept this exploitation, and they're compelled to 'smile' too! Not surprisingly staff turnover at McDonald's is high, making it virtually impossible to unionise and fight for a better deal, which suits McDonald's who have always been opposed to Unions.

ROBBING THE POOR Vast areas of land in poor countries are used for cash crops or for cattle ranching, or to grow grain to feed animals to be eaten in the West. This is at the expense of local food needs. McDonald's continually promote meat products, encouraging people to eat meat more often, which wastes more and more food resources. 7 million tons of grain fed to livestock produces only 1 million tons of meat and by-products. On a plant-based diet and with land shared fairly, almost every region could be self-sufficient in food.

DAMAGING THE ENVIRONMENT Forests throughout the world - vital for all life - are being destroyed at an appalling rate by multinational companies. McDonald's have at last been forced to admit to using beef reared on ex-rainforest land, preventing its regeneration. Also, the use of farmland by multinationals and their suppliers forces local people to move on to other areas and cut down further trees.

McDonald's are the world's largest user of beef. Methane emitted by cattle reared for the beef industry is a major contributor to the 'global warming' crisis. Modern intensive agriculture is based on the heavy use of chemicals which are damaging to the environment. Every year McDonald's use thousands of tons of unnecessary packaging, most of which ends up littering our streets or polluting the land buried in landfill sites.

MURDERING ANIMALS The menus of the burger chains are based on the torture and murder of millions of animals. Most are intensively farmed, with no access to fresh air and sunshine, and no freedom of movement. Their deaths are barbaric - 'humane slaughter' is a myth. We have the choice to eat meat or not, but the billions of animals massacred for food each year have no choice at all.

CENSORSHIP and McLIBEL Criticism of McDonald's has come from a huge number of people and organisations over a wide range of issues. In the mid-1980's, London Greenpeace drew together many of those strands of criticism and called for an annual World Day of Action against McDonald's. This takes place every year on 16th October, with pickets and demonstrations all over the world. McDonald's, who spend a fortune every year on advertising, tried and failed to silence world-wide criticism by threatening legal action. Many were forced to back down because they lacked the money to fight a case. But Helen Steel and Dave Morris, two supporters of London Greenpeace, defended themselves in a major UK High Court libel trial. Despite all the cards being stacked against them, denied Legal Aid and a jury trial, Helen and Dave turned the tables and exposed the truth by putting McDonald's business practices on trial. Some ***ing judgments were made against McDonald's and protests against the $40 billion a year fast-food giant continue to grow.

This debate is getting off topic and out of hand - but what the hey!
Tom.