I know, Pete. From what folks have said, the manuscript definitely sounds like it's worth the $30 total price. I just didn't feel like rewarding the seller (again, not Whit) for deceptive practices. (That, and the fact that after spending $3,000 on magic last month, I'm trying to spend $0 this month!)


Cain, that's funny. Now that you mention it, I saw that video, and it was a major force in getting me into magic. After all, how hard could a DL be?

///ark

I'm not sure where you are ordering from, but any package large enough to send a manuscript in (about 9 by 12) and under 1lb costs me around $11.

I also know that Whits write up is GOLD, and worth every penny.

Just my 2 cents.

Just a quick look showed that USPS will mail a flat-rate envelope for $4.05.

I buy a lot of stuff via mail order, and $7.50 for a 35 page booklet is out of range.

///ark

$.50 for the envelope and $3.00 to hire someone to drive to post office doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

Nordatrax is right. If Whit charged $35 and threw in free shipping, it would still be a great deal.

You don't even have to drive it to the post office. Set it out and the mailman will take it.

The point is, no matter how you break it down, it's still worth it.

I think you guys are missing my point. I totally accept that the booklet is worth $30, $35, or more.

What I don't like is someone making money off the shipping. This is common on eBay. The price looks low, but they make it up on the shipping. The vendors I use, however, charge a reasonable price up front. It's just more ethical, in my opinion.

My wife and I sell our used books on Amazon. We charge (and are reimbursed by Amazon) about $3.50 a book. I mailed a much larger package yesterday, and it cost me $4.08. A flat-rate envelope costs even less.

Dave and edh: people in the mail-order business do not take mail to the post office one piece at time, nor do they leave a single letter out for the mailman.

Dave, by your logic, they should also charge separately for taking the item down from the shelf, entering the order into the computer, and putting the item into the envelope.

The original justification for charging shipping is that it's different for each purchaser. Nowadays, it seems like it's just an easy way to get more money. They get you because (in general) you only find out about the shipping when you've already decided to buy the item.

Can you tell that I'm kinda passionate about this? Like I said, I buy a lot of stuff through mail order.

///ark

Actually, yes. I think it's called "...and handling." It also includes fees paid by the seller for the customer convenience of an online shopping cart. Have you tried writing to Whit? He's pretty easy to talk to. Whit's not really in the mail order business. He keeps pretty busy on his own. This is material that he uses in his own work that he's sharing with us. It's not like he wrote this with the intent to sell it to the masses so he could make a few extra dollars from "...and handling" charges.


So am I, especially when it seems to question the ethics of someone as honest and giving as Whit.

Write him, or call him. His number is on his website. Heck, he'll probably give it to you rather than see you unhappy. That's just the kind of guy he is.

Mark wrote, in two separate posts:

"I'm sure Whit has nothing to do with this extortion."

"I just didn't feel like rewarding the seller (again, not Whit) for deceptive practices."

He has made it quite clear he doesn't fault Whit for the shipping cost, and so he's obviously not questioning Whit's ethics.

Thanks, Dan.

Guess I've said enough on this topic.

///ark

I'm not exactly sure who he's blaming. Since Whit does this himself, he is the seller. There is no faceless middle man getting rich off of this.

I guess we've both said enough. Mark doesn't like handling charges. I don't care as long as the total price paid is reasonable. Time to move on...

Not wanting to flame this up again, but I fully understand where Mark is coming from.

I also get annoyed being charged between 10 and 15$ shiping cost, only to discover that a 4$ stamp is on the package. So this has nothing to do with Whit at all, but concerns the general practice in some mail order business.

I tend to agree. Who in the world, after watching a performance of this classic routine, would ever think to go to youtube and do a search for "Chicago Opener?" Laymen just don't do that sort of thing, and hopefully there is no magician so awful at patter that they actually name the name of the effects they are doing...."here's a little trick called 'Chicago Opener...'"

Charging $4.05 for shipping when the exact shipping costs $4.05 is a losing money proposition for the seller. How do you think the shipper got the items? They paid shipping charges too!!!!! It takes time and money to hire someone to find the new orders, keep track of existing older orders, print out the new orders, see if they are available, order them if they are not available, unpackage the incoming boxes, organize the items in stock, pay for racks/bins/shelves, package the item, pay for packaging materials such as peanuts, bubble wrap, paper, print out the shipping labels, pay for the mailing label (even if it's just a piece of paper), packing slips, pay for the tape, pay for the ink/toner, pay for the printer that prints it all, the energy bill to run the lights,printer,computer,etc. Re-shipping if the address is wrong. Re-shipping if the items were not quite right. Shipping more items later for free if there was a back-order. What if a DVD is no good when it arrives? Then you have to get another one shipped out. For free.

Those extra costs are not figured into the cost of the item. The are part of shipping and handling.

Shipping and Handling is the hardest part of my business. It is very costly and VERY VERY time-consuming. I lose money every year on shipping and handling.

If the shipping and handling is $7.50, to me that means the seller is trying to tell you, "if it's not worth it to you then please wait unitl your'e ready to order a bit more to make it worth both our while".

It's not a rip-off. It's just a fact. I believe Denny Haney charges $5 no matter what. $5. Your order one sheet of flash paper and it's $5. one rubber band? $5.
one fakini billiard ball? $5. 12 DVD? $5. One little intsy-wintsy lecture note? $5.

And if you're not aware, it appears that shipping prices are going to go way up starting May 14th. What costs me $10 to ship overseas today is going to cost me at least $16 from what I can tell. Also, shipping will now be done not just by weight (oh, did I add in the cost for the scales to weigh the boxes, pens for marking the boxes, tape guns, extension cords, tables to do the packing on?) but they will be done by the dimension of the boxes. So now we must pay for a tape measure to measure the boxes plus larger boxes will now cost more to ship. this means trying to keep extra box sizes so you can fit the product into the smallest box possible. This means you need more room to run your business. Rent? Did we discuss the cost of your shipping location? Maybe it's just a garage and you moved all the garage stuff out to a storage place. That costs money too.

Frank, most of the people I buy from include all the costs you mention in the price of the item. They don't tack it on when I'm ready to check out. I think the reason is obvious - because customers don't like "organizing the items in stock" added on as "shipping and handling"!

I don't even understand the statement "I lose money every year on shipping and handling." You don't sell shipping and handling - you sell products (I assume). If you don't factor all your costs into your selling prices, then you're not making as much money as you could be. Somehow, I doubt that's the case - my impression from your posts is that you're much smarter than that.

If you prefer to add on the cost of light fixtures when your customers check out, that's your choice. But if I see a significantly larger shipping cost than usual, I'll probably not buy from you. And that's fine, too. There are many, many vendors in the online world. You can find the customers you prefer. I can find the vendors I prefer. That's the beauty of capitalism.

Maybe we can discuss this at the Mark Wilson lecture.

///ark

Mark: On this very board many months ago I was right about to purchase "Chicago Surprise" when I was confronted with the prohibitive shipping and handling charges and additional taxes. Yes, yes, a rationally self-interested consumer looks only at final price and ignores inputs, but I noticed I could have purchased the same item off Penguin for ~17.50 (not counting 10% discount) and received free shipping (although I think they've changed their policy in recent months). There's also the hassle of paying money to an unknown seller, navigating their webpage, and not knowing how efficiently the transaction will be handled. I still haven't picked up the item.

True. The real problem with YouTube is that you can search "magic revealed," and get hits which lead to other hits. Even still, the only people who I think will bother are teenage boys, but I see how that can be a problem.

Mark,
For standard dealer items I pretty much charge the same as everyone else or less. A 10% discount. Then I charge what I think will pay for shipping and handling $6 is typical.

I lose money every year on shipping becuase I charge less than it costs me to ship the items when I include all the overseas shipping + us shipping + free shipping. I do that for one reason and that is to build the business and stay competitive.
My US rates are competitive. My overseas rates are cheap. And my regular customers don't pay shipping at all. I might be dumb, I'm not sure but I was hoping that model would increase business over time and I would be able to make up the difference in volume. We shall see, I suppose.

If you want to picture what I'm doing as charging for light fixtures that's cute and your own business. I'm simply pointing out that it is not as cheap as the price on the sticker on the box. I do try to stay as close to that as possible. Sometimes it's more. Sometimes it's less. I just hope to even it all out in the end. That is my goal. So far nobody has ever complained to me that they got screwed on shipping charges.

I'm a trial and error kind of guy. I don't do spreadsheets on "product organizing costs", etc., even tho that is part of handling the item (I think). I pick a number and see how it works. $6 was the number I've picked and it ain't enough.

I guess I should have been a business major.

I just bought Chicago Surprise from the School for Scoundrels and paid the shipping, and yes it's worth every penny and more. Although I'll admit the price difference between Penguin and the School for Scoundrels store was quite big, particularly after including shipping.

The manuscript itself was cheaper from Penguin ($17.46)
Shipping options were:
Standard (7 - 10 days) $2.95
Priority (3-5 days) $4.95
UPS with tracking (2-7 days) $5.95
Express (Next Day) $24.95

BUT. I've made a decision to where possible buy magic from as close to the creator as I can. I don't intend buying anything else from Penguin. They are excellent value, don't get me wrong, I just would rather not buy any more from them.

This will cost me a little extra, but not a lot. I don't buy a huge amount anyway, mostly books. I'm hoping this approach will encourage me to spend even less. IT may even save me money in the long run.

I think the nature of magic is that it's best served by having lots of small dealers and creators selling their own wares rather than large resellers like penguin.

I will admit though, I was taken aback when I saw the shipping cost on the school for scoundrels. It's a customer service issue more than a financial one. I may decide that I'm willing to pay $40 for a product. If I see it listed for a price of $20 I'm going to be over the moon. If I then see shipping of $15, I'm still getting it for $5 cheaper than I was willing to pay, but at the moment when I'm submiting my order I'm feeling let down, disappointed.

It's not for me to tell sellers how to do their job. I'm sure they've figure out that the lower ticket price will tempt in the buyers and then they'll pay whatever at te shipping stage.

I suspect that might be true for more generic products. But for something as niche as a manuscript for a card routine I wonder if you are dealing more with customers who come looking for a particular thing rather than impulse buyers.

I guess we can just try to be philosophical about it and see the low sticker price for what it is. And the shipping included price as the real price.

And if the couple of buck difference really is important (buying a lot of magic it could add up) then there's always the Penguins and Ellusionists).

-Rd

I only mentioned it because you explicitly included the cost of lighting in your total of the actual costs of shipping.

It sounds like you don't actually include all those things you mentioned in your shipping charge. You include them in the item price (like most other merchants). I don't think we have a beef.



MagicMaker, I tend to buy a lot from Penguin. I like the forums and instructional videos that are included in the price. And I try to gang up my purchases so that I get free shipping.

But you're right that the bottom line is only one consideration.

"Shipping and handling" is basically a fiction. As has been said, it's not just the postage on the package. There's no real reason why it should be a separate cost - unless it varies by the customer's location or by the size of the shipment. "Shipping and handling" is just a part of the cost of the item, for the most part. But it's separated out (as in the School for Scoundrels [!] case) in order to make the item look cheaper. Then you get to checkout and - boom - the cost to actually get the item goes up by 50%. I mean, think about it. If the S&H amount is the same for everyone and every item, why would it need to be split out?

This has nothing to do with how much the item is worth. It's (as you say) essentially a sales and customer service issue. I'm not "telling" anyone how to do anything. I'm just explaining why I won't patronize vendors who back-load the true price onto "shipping and handling."

///ark