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Michael Rubinstein
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Thank you Al for your clarification. When I studied your book many years ago (before the appearance of teaching videos and DVD's), I got the most out of your vanish. It was a revelation to me, as it was so different from the classic vanish that appeared in Bobo. I tried very hard to duplicate with my hands the material you presented, but as you know, reading and interpreting from a book is much different than learning from a DVD or in person (ahh, this younger generation has got it so easy nowadays!). The way I interpreted your move is the way I do it to this day. It may not be natural for you, and may not fit with your explorations into natural movements, but it certainly was (and is)natural for me. I regret that I taught the move as your own, not knowing that you did not do it as I had taught it. It has been a source of great concern to me, as my intention was never to misinterpret the philosophy of a magician I greatly respected. I did say at the beginning of my Videonics videos that the moves I present are either my own, or my interpretations of moves of other performers - not to take away their credits, but because I firmly believe that no two magicans may perform a move in the same way, due to different styles and even hand sizes. This introduction was regretably not put on the DVD's that were made from the tapes. Had I known that you performed the move differently than myself, I certainly would have billed it as my variation of your move (although that still wouldn't sit well for me, as I claim no credit with your discoveries)and explained the difference between the two. The same thing has happened with my own R.O.P.S. move. I teach and perform it one way, and Chris Korn teaches my move as well (with full credit to me). But, it is not the same - his hand position is more open than mine, and I do not agree with that position (no need to go into the reasons here). However,it works for him, and looks quite good when he does it. It is not PRECICELY my move, but it is. It is my move done with his hands, and with his style. I would not feel comfortable if he called it the Korn handling or variation, as I would not feel comfortable putting my name on your own move. That being said, I certainly understand how strongly you feel about your concepts, and after the posts here on the Café some time ago where I first discovered your feelings and your comments in your e book(wish you had contacted me about that yourself though)I began to explain whenever I teach it that you prefer a "drop" action rather than a "put" action. Since one can not undo the past, I hope that this is satisfactory to you, and that you understand my own points. Looking forward to meeting up with you sometime in the future, Mike.
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Al Schneider
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Mike
Makes me think of the Dai Vernon double lift I learned from Dai Vernon Book of Magic (I think) I was very proud of the way I did it and thought I did his handling good justice. By the by I met someone that learned the same move from that same book. He said he did it exactly the same as the book. Our moves looked totally different.

I am also concerned when I look at DVD's about other peoples stuff such as Roth. I feel kind of queezy when Ammar shows Roths move.

Brings to mind a trip to England one year. Was talking to some guy and they wanted to see me do Matrix. While I am doing it some kid walks up and says, "Hey that's a good trick, that Ammar guy really is fantastic isn't he?"

I think the thing that really got me before was all the kids using this line, "Well everyone can have their own opinion." I think you know how I feel.

This is not a case of we can agree to disagree.

While I value my opinion over all others, I value that others have opinions.

To all.
To get on with the show, here are some further thoughts of Albert Goshman.
As I recollect from seeing him a long time ago, he did the vanish in the following way.

The coins would be shown on the palm up right hand.
He looked at the spectator as he did the move and said, “Say go.”
They would say go and the left opened quickly showing the coins gone.

Please check your video tape and let me know if I am right or wrong.

Albert was an imposing personality. He had dark bushy eyebrows and dark piercing eyes. He used this glare a lot in his show.

As he got into the vanish he looked at the helper and did the move. This is a critical point. He was looking at the audience the moment he did the move. He actually would glare at them in what he thought was a dramatic gesture. As a result the helper would look up into his eyes. This means that they were watching the actual move with peripheral vision. This glare, his body position, the way he talked abruptly and so on was his reality. If he actually tossed a coin it would appear the same way. He built a complete picture. The thing missing was you know what. But consider that the helper was watching this with their peripheral vision. This means that the “you know what” was even less important to the whole picture. You also should realize that his looking up also had a distinct affect on the entire audience. This is an important part of the Intention of Reality. Magicians are the only folk that look at their hands when moving a coin from one hand to another. I have asked hundreds and hundreds of magicians to move a coin from one hand to another. I trick them by asking them to hold a coin above their head with their left hand. Then I say I made a mistake and ask them to use their right hand. I really have done this with hundreds and hundreds of magicians. After they move the coin I ask how many looked at the coin when they moved it to use the other hand. No one has ever said they looked at the coin during the transfer.

This is critical. If you look at the audience during any move be it coin or with cups, the power of the sleight will double or even triple.

Mr. Werner G. Seitz, when you do Albert’s toss, look up just as you do it at the camera or the audience. You will see that it makes the move considerably more effective. Chances are you will get the effect you desire. My true intention is that you try this and discover that you have that knack.

As to my philosophy and the way Albert did the move. I believe his upward look takes the attention totally off the move. This removes it from ever being Virtual Magic for the audience could think that they were not watching when “it” happened. I prefer to glance up at the audience as the move is done. The glance is quick and lets the audience know you are looking at them. Here they use peripheral vision to see that you are looking at them. The glance is short so they remain looking at your hands. This has the effect of labeling the coin move as “innocent”. This is unbelievably effective.

One more word about Albert’s vanish. Once the helper said, “Go,” Albert said, “Gone,” while opening his hand suddenly. This is an excellent application of the Intention of Magic. That is, he created magic at that moment with intention. It was quite powerful.
Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Pete Biro
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Al... man, I can see Goshman in my mind's eye right how... I was very very lucky to have him show me the "work" and it has stuck with me. Joking about with magician friends I like to do the Goshman pass with my hands as far apart as I can... it is fun, for sure and it sure works. Smile
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-10-15 11:43, Al Schneider wrote:
....Mr. Werner G. Seitz, when you do Albert’s toss, look up just as you do it at the camera or the audience. You will see that it makes the move considerably more effective. Chances are you will get the effect you desire. My true intention is that you try this and discover that you have that knack.
Thanx for bringing this up!
I can only agree...
To be more precise, one should look up a split second before the transfer is made.
Ppl who don't perform regularily -which includes me- often fall into the trap of NOT following the basic rules of misdirection.
However this also falls more natural to the performer, when there is a spectator to interact with, or better, more then one.
When performing for a camera one should - as you mentioned - also apply that rule, but again it's here easy to fall into a trap.

I have some comments re AGs toss vanish.

He did -in his act- exactly as you described, hand palm up and then the *toss*.
However he too and often did the toss-vanish from the coin resting at the base of his middlefinger, overlapping to the forefinger, and herefrom he used the TP, whilst in the case you described he did use the CP.

He simply varied his procedure, though he did use, AFAIR, the TP version more often.
I have quite a couple of captures re diff. performances of his, that does show this.

One more thing..AG neither did use *misdirection* accordingly to the basic rules outlined by you above.

Actually he hardly noticed the coin after picking it up, (he played with it) and he even did look/adress a spec all the time way before he did his *toss*.
(He even looked from one spec to another during picking up a coin and talking)

The only time AG noticed intentionally the coin(s) is when they where produced, in his case, mostly under the shaker, as he did use that 'distraction' for further secret actions.

Everything you said re AGs tossvanish is -of course- correct, but I would take the above mentioned into consideration too.. Smile

As I earlier said somewhere else, nobody -I have seen- does it as perfect as AG.

In the case where I did that 'kind of' coinflurry the principle is applied in another way, though not done too well on that capture!

Here is the theory behind- how it should 'play':
The coin is resting at the fingertips of the left palm up hand, the right forefinger pointing at it with a remark, then tossed onto the fingertips of the palm up right hand with the remark -in this case- *This side (tails) doesn't count* and after the coin is thrown onto the fingertips of the right hand *On this side is our queen..*
Here now the left forefinger is pointing at the coin.
NOW a shrugging guesture with the shoulders, where both both hands move slightly more apart palm up, AT THE SAME TIME LOOKING UP, during the line: *I've never meet her* the toss is made from right to left..

That's the way I theoretically designed the 'direction' of the gaze of the specs..
The shrugging guesture, whilst they all look at the coin on the fingertips, simultaniously with the moving a bit apart of both hands and the looking up into a specs eyes is *the moment* where the toss normally is done..
I really found this to be a good distraction to get them looking a splitsecond away from the coin..
I often use a bit of a 'rude' remark (depending on 'where' the thing is done, the patter is *Here is our queen*..*She's rather heavy* -and during that last line the palm up hands move apart together with the shrugging guesture and looking up a second before the toss.
Any *unusual* remark together with the mentioned guesture will make them to look up into your eyes, and that is *the moment*.

Again, thanx for reminding me re the failures obvious in that capture, very much appreciated!!
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Malcolm Kavalsky
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Playing around with this, I also noticed an interesting point, the use of shadows. i.e. if when the drop occurs I move my RH over the left and a shadow shows up on the left fingers on a previously lit hand, it seems to re-inforce the effect.
Checkout the Bobo Project at:
http://kavalsky.net:3834/OpenBobo/
Clip index at:
http://planet.nana.co.il/openbobo/
Werner G. Seitz
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I forgot one thing Smile

IIRC I earlier mentioned AG NEVER did the toss-vanish by use of the CP.

What I ment in this case was, that he never did the toss vansih from the fingertips, base of the fingers, and therefrom got the coin into CP.

When he used the CP, he always startet in turning his hand palm up, the coin was resting in CP-position, and therfrom he did the toss.

The way I did it on that demo, was *into* the CP from the fingertips, and that was something I'm pretty sure AG never did.

In my case, I too sometimes do it as AG did, hand palm up and bloking the coin via the muscles into CP, but it's -in my case- not always surefire, depends on the hand condition Smile
To overcome this, the coin starts up inside the hand, the hand is turned palm up and during that turn, the coin is pressed into CP, HOWEVER, when the hand is palm up, the coin rests loosey on the hand and solely the musclecontraction now can blok it into place..
BUT, this starting up maneuvre, also only taking a moment, is an extra move, I like to avoid, as it can be seen, so therfor I do the block into the CP from the fingertips, or use the TP from the base of the forefinger/middlefinger -though that one I use seldom, but no doubt, actually it is better move.

AG always -when doing it that way- after he had the coin in TP moved to it into CP and used the tableedge as a cover, he actually always dipped behind the tabledge to do this..
So I try to avoid- when being standing- that transfer, therefor fingertips into CP directly...
Just to explain more thoroughly the thought behind my handling, also when probably done badly on that capture the thought behind-I htink- is OK Smile..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Curtis Kam
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Werner and Al, thank you for your analyses of this technique. I've come to pretty much the same conclusions myself, and have taught a couple of vanishes in my lectures that depend on these principles. I hope to hear more, and to see more in person, someday soon.

In reading the above, I was struck with how closely it matches the following from Dai Vernon:

"Most important is for the performer to keep his eyes glued to his hands as he chants heads up, tail up, etc. But just as the actual steal is made, the performer looks up at the spectator and asks him to guess which side of the coin is up. The spectator will not look up in all probability since his attention is focused on the left hand, but be sure YOU do" (emphasis in original)

This, of course, is Dai Vernon's description of the Malini coin vanish from "Stars of Magic". There is no explanation of why it's so important to address the spectator at the right moment, especially since the spectator will probably not look up. Your discussion about placing the action in the spectator's peripheral view is spot on, and enlightening. Thanks to both of you.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
Werner G. Seitz
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I have to follow this up with a single remark.

Al Schneider REALLY explained it VERY accurate when he mentioned that:
*Here they use peripheral vision to see that you are looking at them.*

Actually it can't be more true/explained better.

Thing is actually the onlookers have to devide their attention between looking at the coin and looking at YOU -when you are looking up.

Now, they most likely not always will look up, due to what AS explained, but the fact that YOU look up they'll notice -as Al Schneider so well frased it- *periperically*, and that is enough to occupy their mind and does distract from the actual sleight!

How often have we not noticed -out of the corner of our eyes-, even when being occupied by looking at something intensively, that something else is happening 'around' us.

We 'se' soemthing is going on and that distracts us and might have us to look up in the direction of what that other action is happening.
F.ex. we read a newspaper near a window and outside the window a bird is passing by.
It's not even a shadow that bird does cast, but we notice *something* is passing by and look up to se what it was.
Somehow one can compare this to the 'misdirection' applied for any in the hands vanish.

After reading Curtis remarks re what Dai Vernon said, I got curious.

What DV said does match exactly what Johnny Ramsay via Andrew Galloways did make available and what is accepted, as the correct way to apply 'distraction' when a move is done.
Now, what I wrote earlier and above, I did so 'out of memory' and without consulting the various captures of AGs appearances on TV, so I got a bit unsecure re the correctness of what I had mentioned earlier.

I now then didn't soley consult the official AG tape *Magic by Gosh* or the RonMc Millan lecture, but a handfull of others, amongst them my favourite capture from a TV recorded FISM appearance, where he had Shigeo Tagaki as a spec on his left..

When I mentioned, AG never looked at the coin, unless when it was produced is not the complete truth.
He -of course- looked at the coin when he used his lines *This is heads...and this is tails*, that's only natural.
When he then mentioned *You know what the real probelem is ?* He looked up at the spec in due time and then did the *toss*...

*The middle* was his remark, when at the same time opening his hand and pointing with the forefimnger of his right onto the empty palm of the left.

The sole difference between the way Ramsay/Galloway and DV described the distraction in question, AG did establish eyecontact/looking up, mostly way before he did the toss, he didn't look up a 'split second' earlier, but in due time, he simply didn't pay any attention to the coin at all..

The original advice from DV and Galloway/JR, as well as the way AG did it DOES work.
AG simply used his personal way that did fit him to get to the result.

Also to explain a bit better what I mentioned re the TP-toss, in his act AG did - as Al Schneider correctly posted-, first the CP *toss* (which was soley used once during his act) and then the TP toss - here with the 1st coin still in CP.

Later in his act, he ALWAYS used the TP-toss, and in that case always directly after picking a coin up and this as I already mentioned, without paying any attention to it, whilst already adressing a spec and then doing the toss.

I soley mention all of the above to make it more clear what happend and not to confuse you..

Confused ? Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Werner G. Seitz
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I can't resist -after all the theory Smile -to let you se a clip from a practise session together with Joachim Solberg in the midt 1980s showing the toss-vanish in another application.

In that context used as a vanish for a small ball, the size normally used in Mini Chop Cup routines.
Actually I do use that vanish when doing a straight forward Mini Chop Cup routine, but I also use it (rather used it- as I don't do the C&Bs anymore) for balls slightly larger then one inch, the size used for the C&Bs.

It's only a short clip I extracted out of a longer sentence re practising that vanish, where it also was used for a colorchange from a white ball to a red one..
Notice, it looks rather deceptive.. Smile

It's nothing else then another application of Albert Goshmans toss-vanish, just applied to another object..

http://www.youtube.com/?v=-41GFS8iEiw
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Curtis Kam
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Very nice work on that video, Werner. I've said it before, you've got a wonderful classic palm. I wonder, however, if you shouldn't leave a little more space between the hands? I think the illusion would fill in if you gave it room.

While we're on the topic, I thought I'd share somthing that has intrigued me for some time, perhaps Al's "intention of reality" could shed some light on this famous shadow:

"Nothing about it seems artificial, everything looks natural, endowed with inimitable nuances created by the twisting and turning of the hands as only a Bosco can do it. He moves his right hand wonderfully, and the curvature he uses to create a round, moving shadow cannot be imitated. One sees the balls quite clearly before they vanish from the spectator's astonished sight."

This is Johann Nepomuk Hofszinser reviewing Bartolomeo Bosco's cup and ball performance in November, 1897. I read this to suggest that the "round moving shadow" had something to do with the vanishes described in the next sentence. Perhaps something is lost in the translation, and it is not precisely a shadow, but an "image" or "mirage"?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
Kevin Fox
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The first time AG came over to the UK for a britsh ring convention I was fortunate
enough to see him & for me & a whole generation of magicians our lives changed for ever,It was the magical equivilant of the effect the Beatles had when they landed in the USA every thing changed. It was all I could do not to try & imitate everything he did. I got to corrispond with him for some time & saw him every chance I got on subsiquent visits. I saw him perform kneeling down @ a coffe table with the same effect, & as much as I enjoy the Videos the cannot convey the effect of a live perfomance, I have a large library & some 600 video's & 150 DVDs but I still hav'nt seen a better or any thing to touch AG's act, the few people to influence my coin work since then are Curtis & Reed Mc clintock who was also over for the IBM british ring convention last month & he killed them, these are todays Hero's but the Goshman effect still lingers. Kevin.
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-10-15 03:55, Al Schneider wrote:

.... My vanish is actually not slow. At the moment of transfer the hands are moving quite fast. I mean really fast. The issue is that, (because of Intention of Reality?) the hands seem to be moving at a normal relaxed speed. (I think I might have an edge on AG here) Traditionally in the seminiars I offer teaching the Schneider Vanish, I am almost yelling at the students to move fast. I force them to do it tripple fast....
Mr. Schneider, I did read the complete explanation wherefrom the above is taken from thoroughly, and I think I understand your point to kind of throw/slap the coin from a distance into the other hand.

Trying it out, it just flows beautifully!

There is a VERY big advantage using your handling as it is 100% surefire compared to the palm up muscle contraction-and then the toss.
And it is so natural.

IOW, it is natural to display the coin lying loosely on the palm up left hand, then when turning the hand over, the fingers -during the following move almost automatically are pressing the coin into CP - to let supposingly the coin drop onto the fingertips, fingers pointing downwards at a natural angle of about 45 degrees, fingers in front, thumb behind, and supposingly therefrom let the coin drop a short distance into the receiving hand.
I can now understand, why you can compare it to AGs toss.

The congrete question -sorry for all of the above bablings- is, that I don't recall to have YOU seing it do (on a vid).

I mean, I do have the *Classical Magic* tape, though have not yet run renewed through it, the contents list I though made once up doesn't show your classical CP-vanish is on it, it might however most likely be, will run the tape later.

I also looked at the covers contents list of your 4 DVDs from L&L and there soley saw your *Basic Vanish*, which is entirely different.

Actually I many years back, -must have been in the late 1960s, early 1970s- I owned a copy of *Al Schneider on Coins* but many years back I gave it to a magic pal and never got it back..
So the q. is, IF your handling, performed by you, is on any of the publically released tapes/DVDs ???
In any case, I suspect it is on the *Classical magic* tape, I'll run through it later today.
I had a look though at Michael Rubinstein handling of it in his *Encyclopedia* series, and I have to say, that all the others too I have seen using it, incl. Thomas Krantz, did it in exactly the same way as Dr. Rubinstein.

This also means, I do understand the diff. in handling -as you described- but...hmm, can it be seen anywhere done by YOU? just to 'se' the timing/the speed you mentioned a couple of times..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Werner G. Seitz
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Oh d*mnd, sorry, it IS on *Classic Magic*, Al Schneider, Copyright 1982..
And..it IS a throw..I can confirm it to anybody...looks very much like AGs, entirely diff. from what I've seen on *The Encyclopedia of Coin Magic* and others doing/handling it!
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Al Schneider
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Well I guess it is time for some excuses.
I had many clips on my web site. It had all you wanted to see.
However, several tradgedies befell the web site. One issue was that when the techies found they could just go directly to my files and copy the books, that occured in volume. My sales dwindled to nothing. Also, I had trouble with the internet service I was using and my site began going up and down without my control.

As a result of all this. I located a new ISP (actually several to spread the agony) I also found a place that supplies outstanding video streaming technology. They claim that any video will start in about 10 seconds and they can supply the video stream to 100 clients without any interuption. It all takes special sofware to do this. Not in the client computer but in the way I develop the clips and the way they are supplied at the server side. I am also spending a lot of energy making my products copy proof on the internet. I am getting good at it. But it is a lot of work.

I want to take advantage of all of this but I am busy on another computer project trying to make a dollar. This is why I haven't been putting stuff up on my web site. It is a matter of focusing priorities.

Well, those are my execuses.

I am enjoying everyone's comments immensly. It is difficult not to get a fat head. Last time I looked in the mirror my head was fat enough already.

This reminds me of an incident that happened some time ago. I am a senior programmer. Both in age and experience. During this incident, a much younger guy showed me a project he had been working on. It was extreamly good. It was done as I would have done it. However, he never asked me how to do it(Haha). He figured it out by himself. I then realized that I was not a god. This kid did what should be done and did it well. I was very jealous. I realized that there are many very good people in the world. I realized that in much of my work in the past management did not care that I was a god, they just wanted to put a product into a box and ship it. I though of something to tell this kid how I felt about all of this. But I said, "You have done an incredibley good job. I am impressed." He beamed.

I guess this also kind of describes how I feel about the world of magic out there.

Sorry for the ramble.
Al
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Werner G. Seitz
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What ramble...?

Nobody got hurt and we all got wiser and learned.
Using the very same basic sleight, I now have 5 diff. options, doing the *toss*:

1.Fingertips-CP, as shown on that demo
2.CP direct toss, as used by Albert Goshman
3.Al Schneider toss from the palm/fingers as to be seen on *Classic Magic*.
4.Rubinsteins version of the Al Schneider CP-vanish
5.Fingerroot (fore/middlefinger)-CP toss as used by Al Goshman

All using basically the same movements.
What's actually more important, is to follow the 'direction' of the specs gaze as reminded by Al Schneider!
Good you took the time to be present here, Mr. Schneider..
Salute!

PS. I enjoyed to rewatch the *Classic Magic* vid from 1982 and now can compare several routines therefrom with the latest L&L captures, incl. the C&Bs... Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Backdoor
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Hey Mr. Schneider, sounds like the perfect fellow to teach your Intention of Reality too, just as an experiment. If you ever give classes in the NYC area, I really would like to attend. Please let me know and good luck with your project.

Oh, and Mr. Werner, you are a wonderful magician. I love your stuff and presentation. Just wonderful.
-Only The Shadow Knows...Y'know?
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