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flobiwan
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I'd like to chime in with a few points.

First, regarding magic videos, we are always saying that when you purchase magic, you are buying the secrets. If I have purchased a magic video, I have bought the secrets. There is no statute of limitations on those secrets. It harms no one for me to download a copy of the exact same thing from the internet. I receive no extra secrets for free and I have the same thing that I purchased. I have also not taken anything FROM anyone else (as in the case of shoplifting). In other words, if I were to download a video from someone on the net, they do not have 1 less copy than they did before. Both of us have exactly what we had before the download. Where is the moral dilemma?

I'll give you an example from my life. My wife took some of our CDs to work to listen to. I wanted to put one of the CDs on my Ipod (not illegal) but it was at her office. So, I downloaded the exact same songs and put them on my Ipod. They were the exact songs in the exact same format that I would have put them in had I had the CD handy. Where is the harm? What is the ethical question here? The end result is exactly the same as if I had used the CD instead of the internet.

Suppose some of my DVDs were lost in a fire and I knew someone who had the same DVDs. Would I borrow my friends DVDs (the same ones that were burned up) to make copies of? Darn tootin'! I bought them. The fact that the actual plastic disk I have after the fire is different than the one I originally purchased is moot (plus I would have to buy the blank disks anyway). I paid for the digital information on the DVD and I did what I could to continue to have it. I also gave money to the manufacturers of blank DVDs. PLUS, I would also be taking some of the burden off of the insurance company (assuming I had insurance) as they would now have to pay me less for my losses. Everybody comes out ahead.

Fredd
jimtron
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Quote:
Where is the harm? What is the ethical question here?

No harm at all in my opinion, although it may be illegal.

I know that some MP3 downloaders have been fined by the RIAA for downloading songs that they did not own, and (more commonly) for sharing MP3s, but to my knowledge no one has ever faced trouble for downloading a video title that they had previously purchased. I'm no law expert, but I highly doubt that one would face legal action for downloading a video that they already legally own. I would think the millions of people that are trading titles that have not been purchased would be a much higher priority.
Tom Cutts
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Yes, kids; you can keep trying to validate your violation of copyright laws, but that doesn't make it right.

For a moment I thought I might have a point to agree with you on, jimtron. I thought at first you might just be confused, but no, you point out in your reposting, you are just wrong.

When one buys a DVD what did they buy? Did they buy a)that copy of the information and the right to access the information contained on THAT COPY, or did they buy b)the right to all media current and future which describes the information on the DVD they purchased? The correct answer is a). And the reality is, as Steve pointed out above, that tape media we purchased is not permanent, just like DVDs are not permanent. You break it, lose it, wear it out, you need to buy another, not steal a copy from an illegal website.

People struggling to prove a lost cause typically make quotes out of context as you have, jimtron. You deceiptfully snipped the relevant information. The correct, full quote should read
Quote:
he has started downloading copies of the videos from certain p2p websites, or using certain "file sharing" software, to replace the videos that he can no longer watch. He then burns them to dvd and that way, he says, he "preserves" what he has bought.
The accurate quote hi-lights that he is not making copies of what he bought but rather he is making copies of material he downloaded without purchasing. Under copyright law this is illegal, which you somewhat acknowlege in your statement
Quote:
I would think the millions of people that are trading titles that have not been purchased would be a much higher priority.
Yes, you are a lower priority, not as easily prosectuted, but still illegal. Just stay where you are jimtron and Fredd, they will get around to you. Smile

Like it or not, what we all purchase when we buy a video product is a hard copy item which is not permanent and an agreement on how you are allowed to use that product. In true fact copyright law has been refined to limit our copying of the media we have purchased to first generation only. If you make a copy of your copy of your original, you are likely violating copyright law.

To be perfectly clear, jimtron. You have stated that regardless of the legality of it you do not find it unethical to download from another person a copy of a video you already own. The reality is that this IS a violation copyright law. If we accept that things which we find to be not unethical are things which we find ethical (or is there some third classification between ethical and unethical) then simple logic leads us to agree that
Quote:
you find it ethical to violate copyright
That, my friend, is a hypothesis.

Fredd would like the readers to believe that
Quote:
The end result is exactly the same as if I had used the CD instead of the internet.
He is wrong. The end result is different. The files are different and they came from a different source. A knowledgable person could easily identify the difference and tell you the source of the copy. The fact that the plastic disc is different from the one you purchased is not moot. It is illegal. Or more accurately your choice of source is illegal. You have pirated that information.
jimtron
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Quote:
On 2005-12-22 02:47, Tom Cutts wrote:
...

People struggling to prove a lost cause typically make quotes out of context as you have, jimtron. You deceiptfully snipped the relevant information. The correct, full quote should read
Quote:
he has started downloading copies of the videos from certain p2p websites, or using certain "file sharing" software, to replace the videos that he can no longer watch. He then burns them to dvd and that way, he says, he 'preserves' what he has bought.
The accurate quote hi-lights that he is not making copies of what he bought but rather he is making copies of material he downloaded without purchasing. Under copyright law this is illegal...


Tom: Please don't accuse me of being deceitful; I certainly did not intend to be deceitful or take things out of context. Here is even more of the original post (emphasis added):
Quote:
Basically, he has a substantial "library" of Magic videos and a few dvd's. Due to a lot of use I suppose, the videos are becoming stretched and difficult to watch (he showed me one of his Ammar tapes and it jumps about like a jack in the box!) Anyway, he told me that he has started downloading copies of the videos from certain p2p websites, or using certain "file sharing" software, to replace the videos that he can no longer watch. He then burns them to dvd and that way, he says, he "preserves" what he has bought. He asked me last night if, by doing this, he is doing anything wrong either lawfully or morally.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but Justin starts by saying his friend has a library of videos, and later says, "he 'preserves' what he has bought." By that I thought he meant his friend had purchased magic videos, they wore out, so he downloaded new copies. Now I understant that this is likely illegal, and you find it unethical. I graciously accept that. But where is my deception; what did I misrepresent?

You don't need to convince me that this is a copyright violation, or that it's illegal. That's a moot point, because, as I said before, whether it's legal or not, I still don't find it unethical.

As far as this goes:
Quote:
...you find it ethical to violate copyright...

There is a tiny grain of truth to that, I'll grant you, but it implies something that is not true. Please do not attribute that to me because I disagree with it. It's a bit of a leap to go from: "I do not find it unethical to download a video that has been previously purchased" to "I find it ethical to violate copyright."

Apparently it's illegal in Arkansas to mispronounce the name of the state. In my opinion, saying that "it's not unethical to mispronounce 'Arkansas' is not the same as saying, "I find it ethical to violate Arkansas state law." The latter implies having a reckless disregard for state law, which the former does not convey or imply.
Steve Brooks
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jimtron said; "You don't need to convince me that this is a copyright violation, or that it's illegal. That's a moot point, because, as I said before, whether it's legal or not, I still don't find it unethical".

Well, you are entitled to your own personal opinion.
However, your statement speaks volumes about your character - 'nuff said.

flobiwan said; "if I were to download a video from someone on the net, they do not have 1 less copy than they did before. Both of us have exactly what we had before the download. Where is the moral dilemma?"

I disagree. True, the site owner still has what he had before you made the download, material that is copyrighted and legally cannot be offered to someone like you as a download. But, the site owner now has one more person visiting his website - which is what he wanted...mission accomplished. In addition, you now have the information you already knew handy and totally intact as opposed to your memory of the information in question. Through all of this the copyright holder receives no benfits.

flobiwan said ;"Suppose some of my DVDs were lost in a fire and I knew someone who had the same DVDs. Would I borrow my friends DVDs (the same ones that were burned up) to make copies of? Darn tootin'! I bought them. The fact that the actual plastic disk I have after the fire is different than the one I originally purchased is moot (plus I would have to buy the blank disks anyway)"

Again I disagree. I do not believe this is a moot point at all.
On the contrary, you have basically stated that if were you to lose your DVDs in a fire, you would have no problem making COPIES of those same titles from originals that belong to a friend. The fact that the plastic discs are different does indeed make a difference. Your friend may have purchased his set from the store, but he does NOT have the authority (ethically or legally) to let you make unauthorized copies.
The fact that you lost your set in a fire is now your problem.
Hopefully you would have been smart enough to have insurance. Why should the original copyright holder lose out on profits just because you had some bad luck and feel justified in getting replacements for free?

flobiwan said; "...plus I would have to buy the blank disks anyway"

So, what does that have to do with anything? Whether or not you decide to purchase some blank discs makes no income for the copyright holder of the material on the original discs.

flobiwan said;"It harms no one for me to download a copy of the exact same thing from the internet"

I must disagree with you.
By downloading from the net, you encourage the site owners to continue to offer their ill-gotten wares to anyone with a computer. The material they offer for free has been hijacked from the copyright owner and then delivered to you for free.
Sounds shady to me.

The product could just as easily be cooking instructions for a particular food. Whether or not you already know the instructions makes no difference.
The fact remains that the download you made meant one less sale to the copyright holder. I guess you could argue that since you already know the information you would have never purchased another copy anyway. Well if that is the case, why are you downloading a copy of information you already know and therefore never need to purchase? For convenience you say? Well, in life that sort of thing generally cost you money - sorry.
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jimtron
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Quote:
jimtron said; "You don't need to convince me that this is a copyright violation, or that it's illegal. That's a moot point, because, as I said before, whether it's legal or not, I still don't find it unethical".

Well, you are entitled to your own personal opinion.
However, your statement speaks volumes about your character - 'nuff said.


Steve, do you find that absolutetly everything that's illegal is unethical? Jaywalking?

-Jim
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
I certainly did not intend to be deceitful or take things out of context.


Yet that is exactly what your actions did. And you don't mean to steal, but that is exactly what your "ethical" action would do. I give you the benefit of the doubt in thinking you have not already engaged in such theft.

So what did you misrepresent? Well, in your snippet you made it appear he had made copies of something he had purchased. The full quote clearly shows he did no such thing. He made no copy of the original he purchased. He made a copy of a similar file from another source which he DID NOT purchase.

Tiny grains of sand are what make pearls, jimtron.

As a matter of fact and logic: If you find it ethical to mispronounce the name of the state Arkansas, and that action is illegal, you as a matter of fact find it ethical to violate Arkansas Law. To what degree is a moot point to the statement.

Having said that, and RVing your mind to see your next question; I don't find that everything which breaks a law is unethical, nor do I find all laws to be ethical. I do, however, expect those so bold as to outright state "I don't care if it breaks the law and denies artists their rightful legal income, I'm going to do it." to at least admit that they advocate violating copyright through their endoursement of it, whether theoretical or actual.
Steve Brooks
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jimtron said; "Steve, do you find that absolutetly everything that's illegal is unethical? Jaywalking?" -Jim.

To answer your question, no I do not.

However, the subject at hand concerns the copying or downloading of material which was marketed on a DVD. And THAT I do find unethical as well as illegal.
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jimtron
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Tom: let's agree to disagree about whether I quoted Justin out of context. You think I did, I don't think I did. Anyone else can look back at the thread and come to their own conclusions, if they so desire. It seems unlikely at this point that one of us will change the other's mind.

Here is a statement that does not characterize my views:
Quote:
"I don't care if it breaks the law and denies artists their rightful legal income, I'm going to do it."


I am absolutely against denying artists their rightful legal income. Apparently you think that would be the case in downloading a video that has been purchased by the downloader; I don't. Again, let's agree to disagree. Please don't put words in my mouth. The statement above is general and sweeping, and I never said it.

Steve said:
Quote:
jimtron said; "Steve, do you find that absolutetly everything that's illegal is unethical? Jaywalking?" -Jim.

To answer your question, no I do not.

However, the subject at hand concerns the copying or downloading of material which was marketed on a DVD. And THAT I do find unethical as well as illegal.


Ok, understood. But for the record, I was specifically responding to this, a few posts up:
Quote:
jimtron said; "You don't need to convince me that this is a copyright violation, or that it's illegal. That's a moot point, because, as I said before, whether it's legal or not, I still don't find it unethical".

Well, you are entitled to your own personal opinion.
However, your statement speaks volumes about your character - 'nuff said.


Best,

Jim
Tom Cutts
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Agree to disagree? Anyone can read the original post and see you did use a partial quote which does not tell the entire story.

Again you are getting confused.
Quote:
in downloading a video that has been purchased by the downloader


This topic isn't about downloading a video download you have purchased. This is a topic about making a copy of a media you DID NOT purchase (a download in this case) and trying to justify it by saying "Well, I do own a version of it in another form." Simply put, copyright law does not allow you to do this.

So jimtron, why do you suppose there is copyright law? Could it be the purpose is so the creators of the product can make a rightful living from their work? I'd like to know why you think copyright exists.
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This topic isn't about downloading a video download you have purchased. This is a topic about making a copy of a media you DID NOT purchase (a download in this case) and trying to justify it by saying "Well, I do own a version of it in another form." Simply put, copyright law does not allow you to do this.

I do think that this thread is at least partially about downloading a video that has been purchased. That's the impression I got from re-reading the first few posts. Perhaps Justin could weigh in and let me know if I have misinterpreted the basic idea of his original post.

Tom, I strongly believe that creators of magic videos, and musicians, authors, inventors, etc. should have the ability to protect their work. Copyright can help this situation, but copyright law is not perfect and many people (including some authors and recording artists) find fault with some aspects of copyright law, or at least the way it is sometimes used. Some of those arguments can be found here.

Why does copyright exist? To protect works from being copied or stolen, basically.

-Jim
Tom Cutts
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Wikipedia is not an accountable resource. It is a gossip resource. They make little or no concern over WHAT is posted inregard to factuality. It should in its current form be considered a bathroom wall upon which anyone can post any information or misinformation they desire, within reason. Sourcing from there should be not be taken as fact. Though it may be it very likely may well NOT be.

Quote:
I do think that this thread is at least partially about downloading a video that has been purchased.
Purchased in what form? The actual download or some other media. THAT is the crux of this topic and I am concerned that you simply don't have the capacity right now to understand the difference. Your wording like your thoughts tend to run very vague or incomplete, I'm not sure which.
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I agree that Wikipedia is not an infallible source, but I do not agree with your criticisms of it. The quality of articles is often quite good. I am aware that anyone can edit any article, and therefore there is no guarantee of accurate information.

I strongly disagree with this:
Quote:
They make little or no concern over WHAT is posted inregard to factuality.

If you read the history and discussion sections of a given article, you'll see that there are many diligent Wikipedia contributors who try to maintain the integrity of the articles. Take a look at the copyright article.
Do you see any factual errors? Does this look like a bathroom wall, or a "gossip resource" to you? Wikipedia is far from perfect, and I'm sure that inaccuracies and other problems can be found, but I've found it to be a great starting point for doing research. There are almost always sources listed at the bottom of the articles that can be checked out.

Quote:
Purchased in what form? The actual download or some other media. THAT is the crux of this topic and I am concerned that you simply don't have the capacity right now to understand the difference. Your wording like your thoughts tend to run very vague or incomplete, I'm not sure which.

My impression from Justin's original post, is that his friend purchased videotapes and DVDs, and then downloaded the same titles from p2p sources. Justin, if you're out there, did I get that right?

If my thoughts are vague or incomplete, feel free to ask for a clarification or elaboration.

-Jim
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I've bought paperback versions of a few books a few times. Several including the ones given away as gifts. Would it be right or ethical to download the text or ebook from a P2P site of a book that I happen to own? As far as I understand it, the answer is "no". On the ethical side it seems to still be a 'no'.

How so? some here may ask. Okay let's say someone writes a book and get some small royalties for each copy sold. The book is available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook formats from the publisher. Where the ebook on p2p, all involved in the publishing side would be losing sales revenue and royalties.

Now let's pretend that someone is YOU. Wouldn't you like to get the financial rewards for your good work?

Change book to "instructional video" or "performance video" if you need for this example.
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Tom Cutts
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Furthermore, who created the ebook? That will tell you plenty. Video and DVD publishers rarely create instant download P2P files in conjunction with a hard copy product.

Quote:
My impression from Justin's original post, is that his friend purchased videotapes and DVDs, and then downloaded the same titles from p2p sources. Justin, if you're out there, did I get that right?

Then I stand by my statements, they are fair assesments of your beliefs. You believe making illegal copies (practically outright admited by you ) of material you have not purchased (you admit he didn't purchase the download) is ethical.

AS to your wikipedia source it was a very slanted piece and I couldn't care less about checking its accuracies as they do not factor into the discussion. Suffice to say I take nothing from that source as fact. I would require more than that source. Doesn't mean it is untrue just that it has no credibilty.
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Quote:
Then I stand by my statements, they are fair assesments of your beliefs. You believe making illegal copies (practically outright admited by you ) of material you have not purchased (you admit he didn't purchase the download) is ethical.


No, I do not believe that. When did I say that making illegal copies of unpurchased material was ethical? I never said anything like that. I did say that I do not find it unethical to download a video that one had already purchased.

Once again, please do not put words in my mouth.

-Jim
Tom Cutts
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First off I aplaud your promptness in this exchange. It says to me that you are invested.

Quote:
When did I say that making illegal copies of unpurchased material was ethical?

That is precisely what you said bit by bit as you clarified your vagueities. It is right there for all to read. Of course, it is built on the concept that those things which are found to be not unethical may be called ethical. You have yet to address my question about some possible third, intermediary perspective.
jimtron
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You have yet to address my question about some possible third, intermediary perspective.


I missed that--what was the question exactly?
Tom Cutts
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Spoon:
Quote:
On 2005-12-22 02:47, Tom Cutts wrote:
If we accept that things which we find to be not unethical are things which we find ethical (or is there some third classification between ethical and unethical)...
Jonathan Townsend
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It seems interesting that in magic it is taken as ethical to copy the works of another, even without permission, and even to sell those works... yet supposedly unethical to copy the fixed expression of those works.

How do we both insist on a right to make copies yet also ask each other to respect the notion of copyright inherited from our larger society?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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