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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
[quote]On 2005-11-03 17:37, Bill Ligon wrote:
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Again, the message is certainly not "all is illusion," but that one can seek inward to reach a place of Truth and Holiness, bliss and peace, whether you call it Nirvana, Christ-consciousness, the Brahman, the Overself, conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel, or whatever. I is the ancient "TAT TVAM ASI" -- "Thou Art That." "I AM THAT I AM" in the Bible. Buddhism posits a lack of distinction between humanity and divinity, indeed between all; Buddhism further regards enlightenment and/or salvation as derived from within; many (not all) Buddhistic sects reject the notion of a supreme God Who is both man's Creator and his Creditor, simultaneously rejecting the notion of man the created who is God's debtor. Christianity affirms the existence of God, that God and man are distinct and separated, and that enlightenment and salvation are conferred upon man, not devised or revealed by man. Christianity rejects karma and reincarnation, Buddhism rejects the exclusivity of Christ. It is for these reasons, among others, that the Dalai Lama acknowledged the incompatibility of Christianity and Buddhism, not on the basis of their adherents' practises, but as mutually exclusive philosophical systems. |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
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On 2005-11-03 22:14, Leland Stone wrote: Leland, I do not intend to get sucked into a religious discussion, but I will quickly defend my own position. None of the points you make are fundamental to Christianity. 1) "Buddhism posits a lack of distinction between humanity and divinity, indeed between all; Buddhism further regards enlightenment and/or salvation as derived from within; many (not all) Buddhistic sects reject the notion of a supreme God Who is both man's Creator and his Creditor, simultaneously rejecting the notion of man the created who is God's debtor;" and "Christianity affirms the existence of God, that God and man are distinct and separated, and that enlightenment and salvation are conferred upon man, not devised or revealed by man." Not all of Christianity fits this distinction. Several Gnostic Christian groups were distinctly on the Buddhist side of the argument. That these groups are not around today is largely due to the "othodox" fellows playing politics in Rome. History is written by the victors. 2) "Christianity rejects karma and reincarnation, Buddhism rejects the exclusivity of Christ." Here the same argument applies; there were early Christian groups that accepted reincarnation, which implies the idea of karma, as well as rejecting the exclusivity of Christ. Even later, these ideas persisted and gave rise to several so-called "heretical" groups such as the Cathars and others. These were dealt with harshly by their "orthodox" brethren. 3) "Christianity affirms the existence of God, that God and man are distinct and separated, and that enlightenment and salvation are conferred upon man, not devised or revealed by man." Buddhism does not necessarily deny the existence of God but points out that there is no need to posit a Supreme Being, not unlike science today. Hindu Vedantic philosophy, for example, posits an impersonal, or rather a non-personal ground of Being, unlike the personal Deity of Christianity. Buddhism denies the need to posit even this, but most Mahayana and Vajrayana sects have something not too different as "Buddha Nature" or "Emptiness." And again, it would seem that the idea that "enlightenment and salvation are conferred upon man, not devised or revealed by man" would not be shared by the Cathars or several other "heretical" groups. Since Christianity is derived from the religion of the Jews, it might be valuable to observe that Qabalistic thought posits three "layers of Godhead" beyond manifestation: Ain, "Nothing," Ain Soph, "Limitless," and Ain Soph Aur, "Limitless Light." Does not "Nothing" seem to relate to the Buddhist concept of Emptiness? This nothingness of both Qabala and Buddhism is anything but dead nothingness, but rather an active nothingness not greatly unlike the "emptiness" of space in which physicists see a boiling, seething, continual creation and destruction of elementary particles. It is difficult to point to any superficial criteria that define "Christianity" since mutually contradictory ideas and beliefs were common among various groups of early Christians. Even the nature of Jesus was disputed. Some claimed he was entirely a supernatural being; others argued that Jesus was only a man. Still others saw him as something in-between. So, if there is something that can be called "Christianity," it must be at a deeper level that we can identify it. The same can be said for Buddhism. It is at this deeper level that the two are virtually identical if not absolutely so. Obviously this argument can be applied to other religions as well.
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
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T-RAY Inner circle 1539 Posts |
........now everyone take a DEEP breath.........I like the discussion, but why so frustrated? This type of back and forth is the same struggle everyone is going through with those people who think different from them. The one thing I know is that we all die in this world and we will know more about the "Truth" at that time. In the meantime, whatever ideas or thought patterns that balance your thoughts so that you can fulfill your dreams/life plan through the proper use of your life energy are the ideas that you should follow. Everyone is wired slightly unique, so it is different for everyone (sometimes only slightly, as in the "different" ideas about Christianity...). Can class be over? .....Now get out there and take your anger out on the illusion you mind hounds.
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
The wise man knows that he knows nothing.
Mark
What would Wavy do?
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
This further only add to the claim of the illusion of "This."
you see it you way, he sees it his way, I see it...on and on...it is all subject to opinion, debate, desire to see it "this" or "that" way... Jesus (Ju-Zeus) Yahshua, was not a Christian, Buddha was not a Buddhist...these labels and doctrine that arose from their alleged teachings are the superstitions that were born of them... Let us not further argue the good or bad of Christianity, neither Buddhism... All can agree that we as Bizarrist's tend to be a bit freer from such vain, and ultimately empty arguements... Leland, remain a hard core Chrisitian...this is beautiful...what we are saying is that we, as a collective group of mage, try to remain open to many o' paths... ...now off to the Good News forum you go... Raven, youre right... |
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
Tanx, mon!
What would Wavy do?
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-04 07:17, lastnitesfun wrote: I know! Uh, whatever. I shall cease and desist. No more! I should know better than to get into this kind of thing. Thanks for bringing me down to earth.
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Bill:
As you and others seem inclined towards civil discourse on this topic, I gladly respond to your latest post: Quote:
On 2005-11-04 02:21, Bill Ligon wrote: Yes, there have been numerous groups who've held various beliefs about what constitutes Christianity, and the same can be said of other religious sects as well. The question is not whether such factions claimed to be part of a given cult, but whether they fit the category of that cult at all. It seems to me that in this regard the category is best defined by who or what establishes it, rather than by who claims it. (You applied this same test earlier, when you mentioned those who burned witches or engaged in the Crusades as exhibiting un-Christian behaviour.) Thus, in the category "Christianity," Jesus, rather than David Koresh et al, sets the benchmark. Buddhism, whatever else it teaches, holds that karmic cleansing through multiple lives leads to eventual purification and release from the karmic cycle into...insert your description of choice. Christianity claims that men die once, to face a judgment where no defense they can offer provides any hope of release, which is supplied only by an external Source. I appreciate your desire to seek common ground between various traditions. However, if, in order to do so, we must dissolve all categorical distinctions and count each view (even those that are contradictory and untenable) as equal, then the common ground is irrationality. Gede -- off to the Good News section? C'mon, you know how they treat the Bizarre guys over there |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
No more, Leland. I respect your position and I don't dispute your right to it. I enjoyed the discussion, and you cause me "furiously to think." However, I think others here, except for Baba, perhaps, don't share our interest in this. Let's call it quits before we are attacked by a mob. It was fun while it lasted!
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-04 07:17, lastnitesfun wrote: Better yet: Any fool knows that. I know!
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
Yes my brothers, this was healthy indeed, and done in a respectful, uplifting manner...thanx for sharing your wonderful minds with me, and the rest of us...
the bottomline is Love should be the name of everyone's Deity chosen... and of superstition I will say that it is the "mud" out of which the "flower" of enlightenment will, in a moments notice, spring forth, basking in the Light of Self knowledge... I love you all, equally!! and, Leland, do I EVER know how we're looked upon o'er yonder... seriously fellas, thanks again! |
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Mystician Inner circle Wallachia 3485 Posts |
Just 2 comments, and I surely have no desire to keep this thread going ad infinitum, but:
1) "The wise man knows that he knows nothing" I think that is meant in relative terms ? I prefer Einstein's, "The difference between what the most and the least learned people know is inexpressibly trivial in relation to that which is unknown." 2) Banish Leland to the "Good News" forum ??! Wha ? Perish the thought !!! I think he's making perfect sense, actually. Perhaps it's a matter of perspective, but I think everybody hit on some good points and is "correct" to some degree. On the brightest of sides, that was the closest thing to a "jab" in this entire thread, and even that was said tongue in cheek. LeLand also picked up on that and didn't get huffy about it. That's one of the many things I love about this group/forum. Can you imagine this entire conversation in the mentalists' section ? I can't. It wouldn't have gotten half as far before it completely degenerated into name calling, insult slinging, threats of violence, bruised egos, and possibly deleted posts/banned members. We rock.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net |
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
Yes! In other forums, you would be judged by people who have no business judging you. Here we not only can engage in intellectual discussion but also do so with widely varying ideas.
And if Leland didn't have the Bizarre Forum as an outlet for intellectual discussion, he would likely go postal on Good News.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
...He turned Rocks into bread and fish...He was defintely a Bizarrist...
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
...not to mention walking on water and raising the dead!
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
...and, in some pictures, He has a Mullet...now that's Bizarre!
shoulda crucified his barber ? ok, ill stop... I bow to the feet of ALL the Masters...those who came those who are, and are to come... and, remember, the Master is forever the humblest of Students... |
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Midnight333 Veteran user 353 Posts |
Im baaaaaaack! Peace!
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
<-----raising a glass in a hearty toast to fellow Magi
Is this not itself the very soul of Magic? That those of diverse minds might meet and share those minds, in good will, civility, shared interest, and pleasant jest? |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Cheers, Leland! To the very soul of Magic!
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Mystician Inner circle Wallachia 3485 Posts |
That wasn't a picture of Jesus with a mullet you saw Gede, that was a Lynyrd Skynryd album cover.
;p Soul of what ?.. soul of magic ? Did someone say soul ? Where ?! where ?! Quick ! My butterfly net ! Seriously though, I'll drink to you guys. It is quite refreshing to see such discussions remain just that - discussions, and profound ones at that. Anyone who might be inclined to paint bizarrists as immature are definitely misguided, and I think this was just proven.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net |
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