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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
You're right on the money, Parson, especially the part about how silly this whole thing has become. When I started in magic, sometime in the mid-1960's, we didn't have these discussions. Granted there were relatively few people involved in magic back then compared to today, but we used what was available, invented our own stuff, and shared with others. We did not deliberately rip off someone else, but neither were we petrified of turning around clockwise because someone might come by and say they invented the turn.
With so many people out there today "inventing" the same type of magic and publishing it, it's darn near impossible to think of something that someone else hasn't already done, or even to use something from an old book or magazine that someone more recently hasn't adapted and put their own name on. I'll bet that if I pull out my collection of Linking Rings and go back to the mid-60's, I can come up with any number of effects that look "brand new" and "brilliant" today, change them just a little bit, put my name on them, and go on the lecture circuit as the new "genius." This isn't a unique problem to magic. Graphic designers -- those people who do magazine ads, layouts, and similar things -- have the same problem. How in the heck do you look at every single ad that's ever been done in the world to make sure you're not copying a tiny little detail, or the way two colors work together, or where the ad copy is placed? Do these guys really think they have to pay someone else every time they do something? The ones I've known don't; they just concentrate on doing the best and most creative work they can, and if it turns out they have the same idea as someone else, they write it off as a coincidence and hope it doesn't happen again. They focus on their work and their careers, not on pettyness and "ethics." I have to believe the vast majority of the members here who constantly argue this ethics thing back and forth have good intentions, and I'm all for good intentions. I also think it's a shame that so much creative, original work is being ripped off right left and center. But man, reading some of these posts in the context of the real world makes me wonder if the purpose of magic has changed from entertainment to having a reason for feeling guilty.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
George, folks,
There are a few who do make new things. And speaking only for myself, I resent being copied without permission. I do and likely will continue to support others in their efforts to realize their own vision in magic. Till the pigeons in this community can respect the works of men, there will be discussions of ethics and perhaps some unpleasant consequences for misusing ones talents at imitation. Especially when money or secrets are involved. Where nature is known by it's connection between cause and effect, magic is founded upon breaking that connection and creating mystery. IMHO we need to respect the notion of secrets.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts |
George,
The only thing that I would disagree with you about is that I think that for some, it has changed from entertainment to how can I use whatever I can find to get as much as I can from whomever I can. In a word... greed. Jonathan, There is no way that you could know how much I have admired you from afar. I think you are a person of great integrity and I think that you have been hurt by people stealing your ideas. As I have stated, I am repulsed by people “borrowing” the ideas of others. But I am just as repulsed by people taking things that are not theirs, repackaging them and selling them to people under the guise that it will make them the next Doug Henning. Surely you have seen this nasty underbelly of magicdom. I agree that we should respect the secrets of magic. My question really had more to do with ownership. When you write of pigeons and men, I wonder who you think the pigeons are. My assumption is that we have differing opinions about that. I know some real men and women in magic who are not well known. I know some really well known people in the business that really are pigeons. The proof of this lies in how many people they have scatted (word for bear droppings) upon. I guess, that in this world, there are little scats and big scats. I just wonder why all the scat seems to run down hill. To the best of my knowledge, I have never taken anything from you and whatever I have in the way of intellectual property is yours for the taking. As I said before, I admire you very much. We just look at the scat from different sides. Peace, Parson I was ready to post this and then I thought, “No. This will be misunderstood.” So, let me try, one more time, to explain myself. In another post, I mentioned the “One Hand Knot.” I would not be surprised if Mr. X (that is as specific as I will be,) wrote in a thirty dollar pamphlet, “The Mental Knot.” He would say something like this, “On its own, this is no more than a puzzle. But if you use a red rope and explain how red is the color of blood, you will be able to transform the thoughts of your audience and they will see this effect as more than a trick… a veritable miracle.” From that day forth, the people (I wanted to write pigeons) whom Frank refers to as the Magic Mafia, would insist that Mr. X owns the rights to the colored rope, One Handed Knot. This, in my opinion is scattier than some poor schmuck tying a knot with one hand. Please forgive my ignorance for misunderstanding why self-proclaimed gods of any realm have more rights than the little pigeons that they scat on. GCS
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Jonathan,
Of course you resent being copied without permission. I would too, and I have absolutely no problem with your policy of sharing your material only with specific people who agree to your terms. If it's your material, you are totally within your rights to distribute it any way you see fit. Quote:
On 2005-12-05 23:24, Parson Smith wrote: Here's exactly what I have a problem with. IMHO, this issue of "owning the rights" has gotten totally out of hand. Back in the old days, when we used to traipse five miles in the snow to go to our one-room schoolhouse... oops, sorry, that's for another bulletin board... back in the old days, when we published something, sure, we got the credit for it and maybe made some money out of it. But it was published: it was out there in the world. We didn't expect or want someone to copy it and re-publish it under his own name, but neither did we expect to get a check in the mail every time somebody borrowed the book and used our material. If we didn't want it to be out in the world so it could be used by others, we didn't publish it. When I publish an article in a theatrical journal about how to paint a faux brick wall, or make your own wallpaper, or use a computer to inventory your prop collection, I figure the material is out there to be used. I know something that I feel could be useful to others, and I publish it. Once it's out there, it's out there. Use it or adapt it with my blessings. I have three notebooks filled with stuff from years ago, mostly illusions I haven't seen anyone do to this day, and a lot of routined stage numbers. I could write a book with some of this stuff, and I would certainly claim copyright on the book itself and "manufacturing rights reserved." But as far as owning all rights and expecting anyone who uses or adapts the stuff to pay me -- or even to credit me? Get real. It ain't gonna happen. Not in this lifetime. On the other hand, a number of years ago there were lots of guys who copied Lance Burton's dove act. It was referred to as "the disease." He didn't publish the instructions for the act for others to use: it was his act. As far as I'm concerned, those who copied it were stealing it. Major difference.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
First, thanks for the nod on ethics. From Sol Stone, Lou Lancaster, David Roth, Darwin Ortiz, Goeff Latta and others I was shown early on that it is basic courtesy in our craft to let people work on their ideas and publish using only material that has been released into print ( thus to preserve their secrets ). Beyond that it usually seems to work out best to leave folks to explore on their own and publish when they are ready.
Quote:
On 2005-12-05 23:24, Parson Smith wrote:...When you write of pigeons and men, I wonder who you think the pigeons are. ... This comes from the behavioral sciences. Folks used to believe that it was monkeys who were the start of "learning by imitation". Relatively recently it was discovered that pigeons can learn by copying. So far pigeons seem the most "primitive" life we know of where the "watch and learn-> imitate" behavior has been seen and studied. This also takes the onus off apes for "monkey see monkey do". Men not only have language to permit learning but also language to describe social rules about when it appropriate to act. I get amazed when folks claim things they have seen or been told about as their own. IMO it is more useful to discuss one's findings and contributions in terms of what has been done before. This honors both those who did the earlier works that provided the context AND the novel thinking which was used to get the new results.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Oh, man, I was worried there for a moment... pigeons can learn by watching and imitating????? Aren't doves like pigeons????? What if they learn to imitate what we do to them during a dove act??? What if they start making US appear?????
Fortunately, it turns out they're not that close. A little research on Linnean classification yielded the fact that both are Columbiformes, but the common pigeon, or rock dove, is a Columba Livia, while the white dove is a Streptopelia Risoria. So maybe doves can't learn the same way as pigeons do. So I'm guessing we're safe... whew!
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Pigeons were trained to behave as if playing ping pong, and of course to peck their way down as bomb guides in WWII.
As to doves... any Behaviorists know if doves have been trained to perform elaborate tasks? And back to imitation... You know it gets tiresome asking folks if they are a man or a mouse. Or reminding folks that humans are able to do better than just monkey see, monkey do. In both cases insulting to the rats, pigeons and monkeys/apes. You see, they are doing the best they can. Are you?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts |
Jonathan,
I am slow and old and it takes me a while to understand some things, but I now understand how you were using the the pigeon idea. (I would have written simile or metaphor, but I always seem to screw up which is which.) So, I agree with you on the imitation idea. You realize of course, that I was using the word "pigeon" in a different context... as those who poop on things, people, cars, statutes, etc., with no concern for whom or what they poop upon. In a wierd fashion, this is my way of saying that I agree with you and that I sincerely hope that you can see the other side of the scat. Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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sdgiu Elite user The Boonies, NC 456 Posts |
I believe We have all missed the point here, I believe Brian was looking for absolution, and if he'll just send me $29.95 or call BR549 (we take Master card $ visa) I will forgive him.
Hey it's a dirty job, but somebodies gotta do it, and as Parson Smith so eloquently pointed out, who gets the money, and How much. I believe my system will work. But to be honest I got the idea watching Late night TV (Mr Popiel, and Kevin Trudeau)(They will split the Royalties though, ...Trust Me ) Brian your "Get out of Magic Jail free" card should be in the mail, you may recieve it within 3-6 months. Steve Ps I really have had problems with all this also, and I am glad to see that it's not just me. Well stated guys. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-07 23:50, Brian Proctor wrote:...If I stand there for 45 minutes reading through them without intent of buying, are my fellow magicians going to toss me into "magic-jail?" More likely the books will get shrink wrapped and made less available.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts |
On 2005-12-06 13:42, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
More likely the books will get shrink wrapped and made less available. I am in complete agreement. Furthermore, that would solve some of the problem. That, in fact, is what I have been saying all along. If you don't want your material read, find ways to make it unavailable. Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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Roldero New user Central Florida 34 Posts |
As a beginner to magic, I have been amazed by the amount of discussion on the subject of ethics relating to magic. I am still wading through the posts trying to get a handle on all sides of the argument(s). At this point in time, I agree with Parson's point of view regarding published material. Once a book on magic is published, it becomes a commodity like any other book that has been published to the general public. (BTW, my wife is a published author, so is on the other end of having her book in libraries and used book stores, etc.)
I noticed that the no one had brought up the fact that Brian, the original poster, was in a USED book store at the time he was browsing. Even if he had purchased the books, the original author (or current royalty owner) would not have recieved a penny from the sale. So in my mind, no "crime" has been committed. (But just in case, Brian, let me know if you need my "get out of Jail Free" card) Mike |
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts |
So many people have begged and pleaded with me to release one of my miracles. They have finally caholed me into doing it.
While I really should post this in SECRET SESSIONS, I wanted to make it available to the "little people." Peace, Parson Parson’s Practically Perfect, Almost Totally Impromptu, Sleightless, Sightless, Onehanded, Signed Card at Any Number Miracle Congratulations. After you learn the contents of this essay, you will be as good as me. Performing this effect, exactly as I teach it, will make you not only a better performer, but will also make you a total master of instant hypnosis and NLP. You will also find that you will be loved and admired, not only by the magic population, but also, by the world at large. This effect was inspired by Barrie Richardson’s Impromptu Card at Any Number, but I put all of the good stuff in it. While he will never come up to my caliper of performer, Mr. Richardson is an excellent writer and a subjective performer. Unfortunately, his lack of NLP skills prevents him from having the insight to turn this “card trick” into a true miracle. I, Parson Smith, have done that for YOU! You have in your hands an item that is worth its weight in pure gold. It is worth more than an entire set of Tarbell’s Coarse in Magic. Have you ever wanted people to recognize you for the true, magical giant that you know yourself to be? Have you ever wanted to impress girls with your magical abilities? Well hold on. Your dream is about to come true. The effect: A person selects any card from a completely shoveled deck. The card is signed and then returned to the deck. The miracle worker (that is you,) places the card in the deck at a specifically particular place. Then and only then, the poor fool who is acting as your assistant chooses a number from one to 52 (the number of cards in a deck.) You then count down to that number and Voila!!! The signed card is found at that very number. Until now, this wonderful secret has been known only by TRGMOM*. Even now, if they knew that I was sharing this routine with lesser magicians, they would ban me from all future meetings. This information has been closely guarded by the magic underground (to which I belong,) for years. Now it is yours for a pittance. But remember. With power comes responsibility. Never share this secret with anyone. If you are the kind of person who talks in his/her sleep, SLEEP ALONE. I AM SURE THAT YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE READY FOR THIS ROUTINE! But unless you can understand how really great I am, then how will you know how really great you will be once you emulate me? The Work: The routine is called practically perfect, because nothing (present company excluded) is perfect. It is called Almost Totally Impromptu, because in order to do a totally impromptu routine, you would have to be able to walk in and do it any time and any place. In order to perform this miracle, you will need 1. A deck of cards. 2. A pen or pencil. It is called sleightless because you can do it without no sleight of hand. It is called sightless because you don’t see the hapless idiot make his selections. It is called one-handed because that is all you need to use. It is called signed card because one of the cards is actually signed. It is called at any number… I’m still working on that part. But it should be out in my new pamphlet that includes a wonderful impromptu human vanish. By the way, my previous works, have all been highly praised by TRGMOM*. Step one: Have your victim shovel the cards. Step two: Have the victim cut the cards. Step three: Have the victim turn half of the pack upsidewrong. Step four: Have the victim shovel the upsidewrong half into the downside right half. (This is called mixing the cards.) Step five: Have the victim select and sign any card and hold it in a manner in which you cannot see the card. Step six: Have the victim show the card to the people that you are fooling. Step seven: Take the card from the victim, look at it and put it at the number in the deck that the victim is about to choose.. Step eight: Make the victim choose a number. Step ten. Count down in the deck to the number that the victim has selected and low and behold, there is his/her signed card. This will never fail, but just in case it does, you should always carry all the odd numbered cards in your coat pocket. That is so that you can have the person pick any other card. If the dolt chooses an even numbered card, laugh at him and show him that have removed ALL of the even numbered cards. If he is foolish enough to pick an odd card, just count down in your coat pocket until you get to the one he chose and pull it out. ANOTHER MIRACLE! By the way, I have found the perfect wallet to hold 26 cards. I bought the entire supply. So now, I am the only person in the world who has these wallets. If you really want to fool magicians who know about the coat pocket bit, then you can buy one of the wallets from me. There are only a few left and I don’t want you to be left out. Once they are gone, that is it. You will have lost out forever. (These are not the ones that can be purchased at the Walmarts. No need to even bother looking.) *TRGMOM= The Really Great Minds of Magic Copyrit 2005 by Parson Smith You may not use any or all of this material without express permission from Parson Smith (This includes shoveling cards upside down and backwards, any card at any number effects, any effects using Bicycle brand playing cards or any effects using a wallet.) Should you do any of these things, I will never, ever, under any circumcisions sell you any more of my tricks. Anyone who says that this or any other of my creations are over priced is a bad person and will never be allowed into TRGMOM. By the way, like all of my excellent writings, this one contains many subtleties and nuances. Just reading it aloud can help you in your mental outlook and the way you fell about yourself and others.
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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squando Elite user 444 Posts |
Magic Ethics always seems to be discussed the realm of economics. If not for a dollar then no magic ethics.
The first "magic ethic" taught is never reveal the secret. Even lay persons know this, BUT... The truth is ALL magic secrets are for sale...the price is to be determined.
Frank
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
Parson,
I just had to tell you since I tried your trick my hair has become more shiny and manageable, I got a promotion at work and I no longer have any problems placing an order at McDonalds. Truly amazing. Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts |
Frank,
I have submitted your name for consideration for membership into TRGMOM. While you are not quite there yet, I believe that knowing me will be enough to get you in. Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-07 12:55, squando wrote: I've seen many posts here about the ethics of exposure that are not necessarily involving economics. There was a very long post about revealing OOTW on Wikipedia; that thread was not directly about economics. Do you agree that it's important to "never reveal the secret"? This ethic seems simple but it's actually rather complicated. |
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
I agree it is important but not an absolute. (Never say never) Telling secrets indiscriminately is bad for magic and makes you a very unethical fellow. However, it can also make you an instructor, an author, a dealer, A columnist, a member of a magic organization, a lecturer, etc. etc. etc.
The thing people forget about ethics is that it is not enforceable. That is a road that leads nowhere other than the medicine cabinet for a swig of Malox. Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-07 18:04, Frank Tougas wrote:...The thing people forget about ethics is that it is not enforceable. That is a road that leads nowhere other than the medicine cabinet for a swig of Malox. Pottery shards with names written. Ostracism. Simple boycotts. Seizure of property. Folks seem to be forgetting that the term comes from a time and place where the notions of "good" "law" and "religion" were strongly connected and folks got banished for defying the gods. The separation of cause and effect in magicdom is an issue of its own. Without clear, consistent and decisive actions that come as consequences for ethical breaches, there is no reason to respect any "rules". Frank knows a great deal from experience about this topic of how folks learn about rules and what rules mean to people from his work with children in therapy.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Roldero New user Central Florida 34 Posts |
Parson,
Thanks for a great routine, I tried it today and it worked perfectly. As a beginner I had trouble using a full pack of cards so started off by discarding 51 of the buggers. I have done the trick threee times now and have nailed it each time! By the way, if you make the remaining card a spade, it makes the shovelling a lot easier Mike |
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