We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Svengali 'total' revelation - never? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
Harry Murphy
View Profile
Inner circle
Maryland
5370 Posts

Profile of Harry Murphy
Smile
LOL!!!

My Svengali was a Bicycle Back design and theirs was the TV Magic Cards back design. So from the get my deck looked familiar (normal?).

Er…nope, didn’t do the full deck change in my spot. You are absolutely right; doing a deck pitch is WAY different from performing magic with the deck.

I did do a deck switch later and even lets the boys try a trick with it (the dreaded 21 card trick!).
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
Magicrma
View Profile
Regular user
Arizona
101 Posts

Profile of Magicrma
I too have pitched Svengali as well as other items. Harry Murphy is right, a pitch is different from a Magic Show. If you are a professional(getting paid to do a show) most of your audience should believe that you would only use a regular deck of cards. If they don't then you have a problem. This can greatly effect the quality of your performance. After all you are a Magician and the other person is just a guy with SPECIAL deck of cards.
Smile
MagicRMA
"The art of Illusion is at least 95% applied psychology" Henning Nelms (Magic & Showmanship)
<BR>
<BR>MagicRMA
<BR>Majicrma@msn.com
erik
View Profile
New user
Bucks County, PA
87 Posts

Profile of erik
Boy, I am just _overwhelmed_ with the great discussion on this. When I started the thread, I was just looking to firm up my rules for handling the Svengali revelation, but have learned so much more.

I learned about the Mirage & Symbiotic forms, how you guys have used the Svengali revelation as part of a trick 'pitch', and methods for handling the 'lemme see that deck' problem. Regarding this last point, I guess one always need to be prepared for this possibility.

20 replies to what seemed like a 'dumb' question, not bad...

Keep up the discussion, I am enjoying every post!
Smile Smile
Zack
View Profile
Special user
551 Posts

Profile of Zack
In my opinion the Svengali is a pitch item. It has its uses to a professional (such as forcing a card) but only in circumstances where you are absolutely sure that the integrity of the deck will not be called into questions.

The thing that makes the Svengali so magic is that it can be done by anybody! The gaffus is truely clever, and delights the layman who buys it.

If you do NOT do the final revelation, you just aren't doing a Svengali routine. Like the final loads in the cups and balls, the deck change IS the main effect.
Cholly, by golly!
View Profile
Loyal user
251 Posts

Profile of Cholly, by golly!
A Svengali deck is great way to practice the classic force. If one of the force cards is selected, proceed with the trick. If one of the odd cards is chosen, do the total revelation. Then look amazed and ask 'em how they picked the only card that was not the force card. It works well.
zur
View Profile
Special user
California
671 Posts

Profile of zur
Yes that's a good way to present the Svengali.
andre combrinck
View Profile
Special user
South Africa
953 Posts

Profile of andre combrinck
I think this is a matter of opinion-if you can do a good deck switch the effect is brilliant.If you leave the f*rce card at the bottom of your ungaffed pack,you can do a Hindu display,shuffle it and leave it on the table.This way the spectators will grab the deck and be wowed even further.
Andre
Aus
View Profile
Special user
Australia
950 Posts

Profile of Aus
Exposure is the word here as was well as losing the spectators enjoyment of magic by revealing the cards to be all the same. I believe we can do what is said and by protecting both these things.

First exposure is defined in our art by showing how something is done and simply showing that all the cards to be the same after an effect is not doing that. Look at the effect Out of this World for example, it shows cards equally divided in colours and its that feature of that trick that makes it so highly regarded. Who has said after performing that trick “Oh, by the way I had stacked the deck before hand” or in the Svengali case “See how every card is shorter then the other?” See the difference, simply revealing the fact that all the cards are the same dose not constitute exposure but after mentioned examples do.

The question that is feared to be asked is, “It’s a trick deck, can I see it”. Thinking ahead can solve this to, a simple deck switch with a one way forcing deck that has the matching card of the Svengali is a solution. Giving them that to look at well putting away the evidence dose not expose anything but simple deepens the mystery. How did he have all different cards one minute the all the same the next?
Method exposed? Nop. Lost experience of the spectator? Nop.

I believe that the trick does not scream out “trick deck” as much as many magicians say but rather the context the magicians place that trick in does. For example, we can all take the word “Fantastic” and say it sarcastically, with meaning or with jest and its those ways that makes its perception different. Peter himself said in his effect and I quote: “The whole point of the routine and handling is to use a Svengali in such a different way that even those who are familiar with it will not send their thinking down that particular path.”

Try this as a routine:

Talk about how your great descendants had a great affinity with cards and in fact in the gold rush days many of them were Carrier gamblers. One great (insert family name here) trait was the ability to cut to a particular card.

Hold the Svengali out and have the deck cut by the spectator, taking the cut off pile and turning it face up showing an indifferent card (the force card on top of the remainder of uncut portion). Repeat this a few times to home in innocuously the fact that the deck contains many cards and many of them different.

Taking the deck back and reassembling it, say its ok because you need the (insert family name here) trait. Ask the spectator that you will try to cut to the (insert force card here) at any number she calls out of one to Fifty-two and what’s more you will place that card there with one single cut and without her even indicating to you the number she has chosen.

Place the deck on the table and give it once single cut, then get her to name her number then count done to it to reveal the forced card. Fan the cards toward yourself looking satisfied of your estimate and as you close the fan accidentally drop a odd card face up on the table. Pick it up and place it back in with out saying a word.

Now say you will cut the force card to the top of the deck, as before, make a single cut and show the top card to be the forced card. Continue this antics as much as you can milk it and at the end say, “I will now attempt the famous invisible deck switch.” Place the deck on the table wave your hands over the deck then as the spectators if they seen anything, when the say no pick up the deck and riffle it and show all card to be the same as the forced card.

Well at this point do a real deck switch well the impact is setting in for a one way forcing deck that matches the forcing card in the Svengali and have them look at it if need be.

Have we exposed anything? Has the spectator come away with any less of an experience?

I leave you to decide.

Magically

Aus
BerkleyJL
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago, IL
397 Posts

Profile of BerkleyJL
I don't use a Svengali deck anymore, but when I did...I would do the "total revelation" as a comedy bit. Then I would do a double-take, and riffle the deck again showing it to be normal. Since I use a Mirage I was able to get away with some extra moves. Then I would move to another effect quickly--during which I made a deck switch, so when people want to see the deck afterward (which only happened about 1/3 of the time) I was clean anyway.

I think by switching to a one-way forcing deck that MATCHES the Svengali force card, you lessen the effect. A switch to a non-matching one-way might make an interesting kicker though.
I need a stage name.

Joe Berkley
Brad Burt
View Profile
Inner circle
2675 Posts

Profile of Brad Burt
Yo,
On the other hand I will NEVER and I mean NEVER forget seeing the Svengali Deck demoed for the first time and seeing all the cards become the same card and then back again simply was the most magical thing that I had seen to the time. Blew me away. Thus the Svengali Deck was the first 'trick' that I bought. Frankly to this day I love the thing.

By the way if you think about it....the color changing deck is very much the same effect, yet no one has a problem with that as 'magic'. Do what I do: Do the Svengali Deck, change all the cards the same and then back and then switch out decks. Make sure you have the new deck shuffled by a spectator before you go on. That's magic brothers. (By the way...no, in this case, I won't give away the switch. Took a ton of work to get it right. I plan on putting it in a future DVD. Think about it though and you will see any number of places in a Svengali routine where you can switch the deck in a very bold manner. Even fooling most magicians.)

Best,
Brad Burt
Aus
View Profile
Special user
Australia
950 Posts

Profile of Aus
"I think by switching to a one-way forcing deck that MATCHES the Svengali force card, you lessen the effect. A switch to a non-matching one-way might make an interesting kicker though."

I would be intrested in your reasoning for that statment Berkley.

Magically

Aus
BerkleyJL
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago, IL
397 Posts

Profile of BerkleyJL
If you switch to a one-way deck that matches the S-card in the Svengali, then the spectator will think, "Oh, THAT'S how he did that." I admit, it takes the heat off the previous method. However, if you switch out for a non-matching one-way deck, they will think, "How the @^%&! did he DO that?" Just another punch in the psyche for them...
I need a stage name.

Joe Berkley
Aus
View Profile
Special user
Australia
950 Posts

Profile of Aus
Yes that would make them suspicious, if we where to riffle the deck once to show all the cards to be the same then riffle them back to again to show them different once more as some of you have indicated it would lesson the impact. But I’m saying only riffling the deck once to show the cards the same as the conclusion of the effect and not turning them back is where the deck switch would come into play. The deck appearing to be all six of clubs (for example) then switching the deck out for a one way force deck that has all six of clubs in it would not lesson the impact in my mind.

In my example routine I give a number of small convincers that subconsciously show that the deck contains all different cards. The deck switch is simply to take away the risk of exposure and add a examinable element to the effect.

Magically

Aus
Cholly, by golly!
View Profile
Loyal user
251 Posts

Profile of Cholly, by golly!
Why do magicians think it's necessary to let audience members inspect their props? It seems desperate and anti-climactic to me...

"Look at this everybody! It's just an ordinary deck of cards! I can do REAL magic...really I can! I'm not kidding... really!"

If someone asks to see a prop, I politely refuse and move on to something else. Someone who INSISTS on seeing my props is a HECKLER and will be handled as such...

"Hey, fella...You wouldn't ask a fireman to see his hose, would ya?"

Nobody ever gets a chance to inspect my cards...svengali deck or not.

REMEMBER: YOU'RE THE MAGICIAN. CONTROL YOUR AUDIENCE!
BerkleyJL
View Profile
Veteran user
Chicago, IL
397 Posts

Profile of BerkleyJL
In a close-up situation, some examination of props is to be expected. Part of the charm of being so close to the peformer is that the spectators can see "everything." These are great misdirection moments for you to take advantage of. I just make sure that when I'm allowing props to be examined that it doesn't slow down the flow of my performance. It can get boring to those who are not close enough to check out the items.
I need a stage name.

Joe Berkley
Cholly, by golly!
View Profile
Loyal user
251 Posts

Profile of Cholly, by golly!
Quote:
On 2005-02-17 07:08, BerkleyJL wrote:
In a close-up situation, some examination of props is to be expected.


I disagree. Close-up, stage, whatever... the basic principles remain the same.

A modern audience knows we are illusionists. Noone thinks we have supernatural powers. They know we use trickery to do the things we do. They expect to be fooled by us. They don't expect us to hand them our magic case. If an audience expects to examine props after a performance, it's because of bad presentation during the show.

This whole diatribe is probably off subject. I just find it ridiculous that magicians shy away from the greatest force deck of all time simply because they don't want to say "no" to pushy audience members.
Aus
View Profile
Special user
Australia
950 Posts

Profile of Aus
I know its way to late to be continueing this thread in the month of May when the last post was in Feb, but I feel compelled to make a point.

I think the examine prop concept is less to do with magician it self but rather the trick by its very nature. A torn and Restored card effect for example, where the whole point is the complete restoring of the card back to its former state. Soon as you say "Sorry you can't look at it" you start having the questions run thru the spectators mind like "Well why can't I" which is a valid question.

This question then leads to others like "Maybe there is something with that card he does not wont me to see" and so the snow ball effect continues.

Granted that not all effect suffer from this but this I believe is due to structure of the effects. Some scream examine me more then others.

Magically

Aus
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Svengali 'total' revelation - never? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.15 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL