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Magnus Eisengrim
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Jack, are you serious, or is this just another attempt to use Randi's fame to increase your own?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
hkwiles
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Howard Wiles
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I have just recently responded to an e-mail from Lynne regarding my method for Val Andrews Book Test, which she uses in her Lectures...a very nice lady indeed.
Mentalists must be the most Paranoid species on the planet ! lighten up guys..its a very small minority that are interested in what you do or "claim" to do.

Howard
Graymatter_Fireworks
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The double standards and ambiguous definitions set for exposure in our art are really curious.

It seems to me that personal bias and the individual in question really cloud the subject as each case is treated differently. I¡¯m not sure if that is good or not. Many people accused of exposing have had ¡°good intentions¡± for the general public. It is interesting to see the myriad of exposers in our world and how each is treated differently.

I think it often weakens people¡¯s arguments.

-Brandon
"The social world in which we live, determines our experience of what is real." - John Gager
J ack Galloway
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John,

Unfortunately Randi has very little fame outside of magic and skeptic circles.
The general public has no current memory of him.

So he is of no real world value to me except as a bit of color on my web site.
Or to discuss here on occasion
As I have said before he is fun to play with.

But I am serious about his public exposures doing harm to magic and mentalists.
How many times I have heard the guy say "It's just a simple magicians trick" during an exposure of some sort.
(There are no simple tricks just simple mind performers.)

Why do mentalists issue declaimers during their shows?

Theatrically it is idiotic.


But misguided performers do give the disclaimer because they would not want to upset the skeptics.

What load in my opinion.


Jack

H.O.A_X
hkwiles
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jimtron
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Quote:
How many times I have heard the guy say "It's just a simple magicians trick" during an exposure of some sort.
(There are no simple tricks just simple mind performers.)

Randi has used words like these when describing Uri Geller and others who claim paranormal powers. I don't think he means that to disparage magicians at all, but to point out that what Geller does is a trick, not actual PK power. The truth is, spoonbending is a simple trick (although it is quite difficult to bend spoons well--in a compelling, convincing way). Randi used to be a professional magician and I doubt that he has any intention of disparaging the art. What I believe Randi is saying, is "Geller is not a paranormalist doing real miracles. He is doing a magician's trick which requires no special powers."

I disagree that there are no simple tricks. Ted Lesley's "Spectator as Mindreader," for example, is extremely easy to do and also happens to be a great effect. Again, I'm saying the mechanics of the trick is easy (and that's what Randi meant by "simple magician's trick"); it's not easy to be an effective performer. Also, I seem to remember some popular magic DVD titles that have "easy to master" in the title.
Magical Lady
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I am DELIGHTED to say that I too am a friend of Lynne Kelly. She is - as Seth quite rightly says - an AMAZING woman! She is INCREDIBLY intelligent and could - with respect - probably wipe the floor with a great number of us here on the Café with her in depth and diverse knowledge! She is perhaps one of the most intelligent people I have the pleasure to know.

Picture if you will, say....a nuclear physicist? (not that she is one, but Im sure she could be!) who teaches, is a published author (fiction and non-fiction)lectures, runs an online school for gifted students, gives radio interviews,looks after a family and a home, and who has ALSO taken up magic - and you will be touching the very TIP of who Lynne is!

There are many MANY sides to Lynne, and I am sure she would be the first to agree that on occasion SOME of the things she is involved in MAY seem to conflict with one another? BUT - let me tell you - even if they MIGHT do in another person - they certainly don't in Lynne!

Lynne is PASSIONATE about magic!! More passionate in fact than a great many. In between attending lectures and meetings at her own local clubs, she writes just the most amazing emails which OOOOOZE her love of the subject!

Any worries about Lynne? Absolutely NONE!! Lynne would NEVER do anything to harm magic - she loves it FAR TOO MUCH to do that!

(I will email her and tell her this thread is on the site when I sign off here - I feel SURE that she will respond herself - then you will see and hear her passion and - I am sure - any doubts/concerns will be more than allayed!)

Best

ML x
J ack Galloway
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Jim spoon bending was not a magicians trick.
(It took magicians to turn it into a trick).

Check out the metal bending vids for proof of my piont.
So Randi was not telling the truth when he said that.

Plain and simple a lie.

He was as bad as the guy he was exposing.

Randi was running the effect and Geller down.

Jack


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Lynne Kelly
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Thanks Magical Lady for alerting me to this thread and your kind words. Thanks to the others who have expressed a variety of opinions on what I do. Particularly, thanks Rob, Seth and Howard. I will be incorporating Howard's advice in the next version of the Val Andrews Book Test I develop. Val, himself, has been a delight to deal with.

Hearing opinions on both sides is of great value to me as I continue to weigh up the ethics of being a skeptic and magician. My main career is as an educator who specialises in extending high ability students in mathematics and science. So there are three sides to this particular fence I try to sit on.

To me a skeptic is someone who loves reality and just wants to believe in things which are real. So I write books to express my awe of reality and science. The next is for adults on crocodiles. Then I get a year or two immersed in spiders! I came to much of skepticism through teaching physics and challenging media reports which claimed 'to defy the known laws of physics'. If they do so - then let's find out about them and update the 'known laws'. If they don't, let's not downgrade a subject I adore and work hard to enthuse my students about. So my first loyalty - as every parent out there would expect of me - is to my students.

I came across cold reading first through our high school psychology curriculum, where it is taught as part of the examinable syllabus on Barnum statements. Short of banning standard education curriculum here, you can't eliminate that 'exposure'. Having done hunderds of readings, I can assure you that a superficial knowledge of cold reading will not affect, even slightly, the impact of a good reading.

As for exposing magic tricks, I have done that only in The Skeptic's Guide to the Paranormal, and only to the extent in which I was able to find those things widely written about for the lay reader in skeptical literature already. I even regret some of that, but it was done a few years ago and I made what I thought was the right decision then. I still don't know what is absoutely right in this area. A discussion such as this helps refine my views. I do **NOT** explain those things in my lectures or performances. There I very much use the 'replicate' is all you need to do. I replicate, perform, entertain and educate. The education aspects of the lectures tend to be modelling spontaneous human combustion, UFO sightings and dowsing - nothing to do with magic.

When I get to the psychic part of those lectures, it is all performance without explanation. That gives texture to the 90 minute lecture. Some science, some emotional stuff, some pure mentalism performance. A 90 minute lecture, usually done for teenagers, needs variety and texture!

I love magic. I also love reality but I hate the exploitation of trusting / gullible / vulnerable people like me who are very easy to decieve and rip-off financially and emotionally. I have been exploited too often to not do all I can to stop that happening to others. Good magicians do not exploit - they are performers and entertainers.

Education, skepticism and magic is rarely a conflict - the line is clear. Where the line becomes blurred in the past I feel I have erred on the side of skepticism, and now would probably err on the side of magic. When I am perfect I will let you know. I still have a fair way to go.

I never thought my small role way down here in Australia would rank a thread on the Magic Café. I am honoured!! Thank you, aware.

cheers,

Lynne
Magnus Eisengrim
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"Unfortunately Randi has very little fame outside of magic and skeptic circles.
The general public has no current memory of him. "

Hmm. I googled "James Randi" and got "about 2,210,000" hits. "J ack Galloway" got 676; most of them seem to be postings at the Magic Café. "jimclass" got 170. "Jim Callahan" + "paranormalist" at least got over a thousand.

Looks to me as though Randi has a bit more of the public's eye, but nice try.

Oh, and by the way, note what Randi wrote in the introduction to his book Conjuring:

"It has been a rather tiresome custom, in other histories of this subject, for the author to reveal some of the major secrets of the conjuring profession in order to make the book more attractive to the buyer. I have chosen to break this tradition, believing that the personalities, the events, and the growth of the art should provide entertainment enough to the reader."

Of course all these facts come from "my reality" Smile

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
hkwiles
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Howard Wiles
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Hi Lynne..good comments..however...I don't see why you feel you have to justify your actions /beliefs..least of all on this insignificant forum.

cheers and beers
Howard
p.s just PM'd Seth about my current "predicament" ask nicely and he will tell all.
J ack Galloway
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John,

My intent is not to be confrontational.
But your answer makes no point in reference to mine.

I have been making the effort to be direct and stay on topic in all of my postings.

You are inferring that I said that I was better known than Randi.
However I never stated or inferred such a thing.
I stand by my comment I believe my point was made quite clearly.

Second the internet is a library of sorts it does not show the current general publics knowledge of a personality.
Possibly you did not realize this.
Read my post for my point is clear on this also.

The end of your posting read to me like an example of the cult like behavior that some members engage in.
Thank you for offering an example.

You show them the truth about something and they try to switch the subject.
I believe it has to do with consistency of behavior.

We were discussing skeptics and exposure and the damage some of them have done.
I offered an example of an outright lie and you try and switch the topic.

I might point out that no matter what James wrote it does not change the reality of what he did and does.

How do you feel about the lie?
Is it alright to lie to make people believe you?


Jack

H.O.A_X

By the way you missed searching for my broadcasting of a person dying live on the internet a few years back.
jimtron
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Quote:
On 2005-11-15 19:45, J ack Galloway wrote:
Jim spoon bending was not a magicians trick.
(It took magicians to turn it into a trick).

Check out the metal bending vids for proof of my piont.
So Randi was not telling the truth when he said that.

Plain and simple a lie.

He was as bad as the guy he was exposing.

Randi was running the effect and Geller down.

Jack


H.O.A_X



If Geller's spoonbending wasn't a magician's trick, what was it? Real PK?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Jack.

I do not wish a flame war. You brought Randi into the discussion only to dismiss him. I question 1) your motivation for bringing Randi (yet again) into a discussion about someone else, and 2) the veracity of your claim that Randi is unimportant in some way.

I'm not sure what "cult-like behaviour" you are referring to. Apparently it has something to do with doubting that Uri Geller can bend metal with his mind. Curious.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Sensio
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If you love mentalism and you love this forum too, I would like to kindly ask you to dismiss and ignore all BS that obtains easy, free and strong advertisement to specific members of this forum.
Don't engage into their game. P L E A S E
Magnus Eisengrim
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Aware,

I believe your post is directed at me. Point taken.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
J ack Galloway
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Jim,

Geller was not doing a magicians trick.
It was easy for Skeptics to claim he was.

But that was not the truth.

Jack


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GusVanNostrum
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Quote:
Geller was not doing a magicians trick.


And according to your definition, he was _not_ a magician, right?

All right. He was performing a mentalist effect, then.
Sensio
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Quote:
On 2005-11-16 14:41, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Aware,

I believe your post is directed at me. Point taken.

John


Dear John,

the post is directed to anyone that gives life to specific persons who seek to make publicity through this very serious forum. I too am tempted to respond to such posts but I try to avoid it...

It is not personal at all - it is directed at me as well...

Hope you understand my point

rgds
aware
J ack Galloway
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My point is that it was his effect. (Gellers)

It was no ones but Gellers at that point.

The Skeptic in question was not stating the truth.

No one ever called him on it.
He was giving a false explanation.

That is the truth.

It is my belief that if you are going to be destroying people because of their actions you should be held to the same standard.

And if not why not?

That is the point I am making.

Jack

H.O.A_X
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