On 2005-11-17 18:01, J ack Galloway wrote:


"I think we have a communication problem."

Me too.

"Is your position that Randi was speaking the truth?"

Yes.

"Do you belive that Geller had stolen an effect from magicians and was presnting it as real?"

No. I don't recall hearing anyone accuse Geller of stealing the effect. Doing a trick and presenting it as supernatural? Yes.


-Jim

Jim,



Good post. IMO this few lines bring up the whole point. I just want ot add one more to this. I once saw an interview with Geller dated back to the late 70ies. In this he was asked where he has the powers and knowledge from that he can bend spoons. Gellers answer was that he saw and learned these mental abilities from some psychics of the 50ies and he trained his abilities until he was able to use this powers.

So IMO in this case Geller even didn't lie. He was referring to so called psychics and took their methods of bending spoons and made it public to sell it as real powers. He just didn't mention that this were methods to fake spoon bending.
And in those days Geller has sucess with this and I congratulat him on this.

But even he knew that there will be times when people will be more aware of certain things and will reveal methods on bending spoons. So Randi was the first who did this before big auditorium.

So again Jim is absolutely correct with the lines I quoted above. And as I mentioned in my post above there is nothing more to say to this since all other points just are hard to verify and there always will be a difference. So this is a deadlock situation.

Greetings
THomas

Well we have now found were our problem is I hope.

My comments on this thread are about Randi not speaking the truth.

Not about Gellers actions.

But the truth is that it was not a magicians trick or mentalists trick.
Randi was in my opinion fabricating to make his piont stronger.

And if he did it at that time does it not call into question his other actions.

He is a pro-skeptic and I believe open to the same examination as those he exposes/investigates.

What do you think?


Jack

I agree that a skeptic should be subjected to the same scrutiny as anyone else. I've heard Randi dissed at the Café many times, but I've never heard any concrete examples of wrongdoing by him with evidence (He's been called a fraud here, but I've yet to see any evidence to back that up).

How do you know that what Geller was doing was not a magician's trick? He has been seen physically bending the spoon. That's what magicians and mentalists do when they bend spoons. Therefore, Randi was telling the truth.

No not then Jim.

That is my piont.

Jack

You know I am glad I use a differnt name here. If not all of this would be much more confusing.

By "no not then" you mean that Randi wasn't lying about Geller, right? That's your piont?

Jack, why are you hung up on this whole "magician's trick" thing? I tried addressing this, but I'm not sure that you understood, so I'll try again.

I haven't seen Randi talking about Geller, so I don't know what he meant when he referred to Geller's spoon bending as a "magician's trick." It seems to me that you believe that by calling it a "magician's trick" he was implying that it was a trick invented by magicians before Geller ever used it. If this is what Randi meant, then I suppose he could have been lying—although that would depend on the history of spoon bending, a subject with which I am unfamiliar).

Others think that Randi called Geller's spoon bending a "magician's trick" not to imply that it was an already existing trick, but to clarify that a method was being used that was not "supernatural" in nature. (And please, please let's not get into the whole "if it's possible then it can't be supernatural" thing, as it's a pointless semantic argument. Much like this one...) The important part of the quote is the word "trick," not the word "magician." Calling it a magician's trick makes clearer the nature of the method being used (of course, calling something a "simple magician's trick" is also a put down).

Is this clear to you? If so, perhaps you could explain why you favour the first interpretation of the quote. If it's not clear then I suggest, as I have before, some English classes, since your reading comprehension does not appear to be all that strong.

-Travis

From the horse's mouth.

James Randi:

"In Israel, where the public was not quite as susceptible as in America, Geller was accused by a complaintant of doing tricks when he had promised to do genuine psychic feats. The Israeli court assessed him costs, and the price of the plaintiff's ticket was refunded to him.
But it was the newest marvel that he later performed——seeming to bend and break metal objects by mind power——that made all the news. That, it seemed, was original with him, unlike the other rather standard routines. However, in 1968 a conjuring magazine available in Israel published the instructions for a spoon trick that was indistinguishable from the Geller demonstration.
Insisting that his demonstrations were the real thing, in 1974 Uri Geller traveled the world with his story of having been given his powers through a distant planet called Hoova in another star system, and a UFO called “IS” or “Intelligence in the Sky.”

"Uri Geller may have psychic powers by means of which he can bend spoons; if so, he appears to be doing it the hard way."

Jim,

Intersting a magazine with no name.

Geller was evidently the only subscriber.

And no one but Geller ever made use of the effect including the writer or originator of the effect.

Also Gellers "effect" pre-dates the cited artical in the mythical magazine.

Strange Randi would not have shown that as proof. I think that would have been far more convincing don't you?

Jack

Jack:

I'll bet you $100 that the magazine is not "mythical," but actually exists.

Randi said that Geller likely used a trick to bend spoons, not paranormal powers. You say that's a lie, yet you refuse to say whether you believe that Geller used trickery or paranormal powers. That's the key point of the alleged lie. You're claim holds no water.

Jim

Are you truly this blind?

Or just faking?

I am having a hard time beleiving a magician or mentalist cannot understand my position.

Man you are starting to read like a cult member.

Do you realy swallow all of the crap on that site?

Really? Do you think the guy is clean?

Just asking for I find your defense of one who is a memeber here and unwilling to defend hinself a puzzle.

Jack

Jim if you are a JREF drone please let me know for I will waste no further time on you.

To clarify, please tell me if you think Geller used paranormal powers to bend spoons, or some kind of trick (physically bending the spoon with his hands; using misdirection or other deception to hide it). I've asked you this repeatedly on this thread and you've evaded the question. It's a simple question. Or perhaps there's a third option I haven't mentioned; if so, please specify.

Also, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from hurling unsubstantiated insults and innuendos.

-Jim

Jim, I have read some of this guys posts and he never answers any questions. He talks in circles. To me he is just annoying. Why bother with him?

Not hurling yet.
(A joke)

Just looking for an answer.

Really Jim I will call you and talk about this.
(Possibly we can spare the others here having to deal with our written duleing if we do).

If you PM me with your number I will call tomorrow before noon.
(Or call me if you prefer tomorrow my number is 843 525 6638).

I am not mad just confused.
I understand that this sort of written debate can look egdy in the written form.

I am sorry if what I wrote read that way.

There is a third option that I will be glad to talk about.

Best Wishes,

Jim aka Jack Galloway

EDH,

Why becouse I am a fun guy.

Are you?

Hey noticd you are a musician also.
One of my idols is Les Paul.

Jack

Catch me if you can.

A very good question that might require professional treatment.

Jack:

I'd prefer not to discuss this on the phone, in fact I don't need to discuss this anymore at all. If you'd like to post your reply to my simple question, please do it here. If not, let's agree to disagree and move on.

That will be ok with me Jim.

Since I do not belive it has anything to do with the topic.

I will tell you that I think Geller was good at what he did.
And I know he was caught a few times.

But I also know that the pro-skeptics still cannot duplicate everthing he has done.

I know this to.
I cannot duplicate what Geller did.
That is truth.

Jack

H.O.A_X

Jimtron, about the nameless magazine in which Geller's effect supposedly appears; Both myself and the late Marchello Truzzi contacted Randi (more than once)in an attempt to get the details but Randi never replied. However it actually seems as if this claim first saw the light of day in T.A. Waters's Encyclopedia where he mentions Geller's claim to fame being the bending and breaking of cutlery and notes that a similar effect appeared in ABRA in 1968. Waters only says the effect was similar and doesn't say whether it involved bending or breaking. Randi is equally unclear on this point but claims the effect was identical to Geller's. He also seems to be claiming that ABRA was available in Israel in 1968. I don't know for sure but I imagine it was only available by subscription from the publishers in England or via a foreign magic dealer perhaps. You would have thought that if an effect identical to Geller's had appeared in one of the most widely read magic magazines just five years before Geller's debut then it would have been discovered early on and mentioned at every opportunity.

Steve:

I don't know the history of Geller very well; you seem to know more than I. I never meant to argue that Geller didn't originate his own presentation of spoon bending; I don't know if he did or he didn't. My point for quoting the info about 11 posts up: that apparently an Israeli court found (before Randi, I think) that Geller was not using psychic power as claimed, but rather tricks. Also, I thought it was notable that Geller apparently claimed that he was an interplanetary traveler.

As for the magazine article, it appears that none of us have definitive information (a copy of the spoonbending article, or evidence that it was available in Israel). I'm planning on checking Randi's book on Geller to see if he has a source for this.

Does anyone here believe that Geller can bend spoons using supernatural power (as opposed to natural power--bending the spoon with his hands in a concealed way)?

Hi,

Just to get back on topic - since I know a few members in the PEA who are members of CSICOP... it gets down to how you respect people's ahrd work and disrespect chalatans. Someone mentioned that it is crazy for a mentalist to give a disclaimer - it all depends on the essence of the act. If Uri wants to say he got his powers from little green men - OK - but then people will be after the truth. Check out Chuck Hickok's approach - disclaimer at the end of a show. Nice subtle touches. As for the original person who Aware pointed out - bravo for her! As a fellow educator in the medical field, I use mentalism and magic as well without ever having to expose methods - but use effects for illustrating points. Now, Cold Reading - how can anyone argue there are a lot of people ripping money away from people... go read the amazing book if Ian Rowland's... the classic work IMHO.

Anyway - hi! I'm a new member. Glad to meet you all. I'll go post a bio at the other forum site in the near future.

All the best,

Bruce