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The Doctor Loyal user Gallifrey 265 Posts |
Brad, I have no problem with the contents of the book other than if I had known what it was I would never have bought it, my decision to buy influenced by the high regard in which I hitherto held your two friends and the trust I placed in them not to stiff me.
You mention that the contents were kept secret so as not to spoil the effect that the book would have on the purchaser had they known what they were getting. You attested to that very fact yourself out of personal experience. Since you have so far lacked to define that effect/feeling in any meaningful way, I put it to you that the effect was one of immense disappointment. Add a dash of puzzlement and a sprinkle of annoyance and you have a recipe for an underwhelming book. The reason you did not feel these emotions is because you knew it was a book of quotes and could make an informed decision whether or not to buy the book (did you? or were you given a copy by M&M?). Many of the buyers were not given that choice out of a calculated and premeditated marketing decision. Yes, I am one dissatisifed buyer but I can tell you that I speak for many. Short of taking a poll of every single purchaser of the book I doubt you will believe me when I say that this book has engendered more disappointment than thoughtful contemplation over the state of magic. |
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
I agree with The Doctor.
Quote:
On 2006-01-12 11:17, truthteller wrote: I really don't understand how truthteller can so vehemently argue how wonderful the "surprise" was when he could never have experienced it. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
To answer a few questions? I KNEW exactly what the book was and willingly PURCHASED one. I had the same "buy back" offer extended to me, but was happy with the book. Consequently, I feel I can safely disagree when people say,"If anyone knew what the book was, they would have never bought it." And wasn't that the gist of the very first post of the thread?
So, I KNOW that myself and others would have bought the book. And I felt that those who claimed ommnisciently otherwise should be corrected. Second, whether one person disliked the book or 499 is STILL not the point. The point is, in this and in the other threads, those screaming the loudest and calling for the heads of these men were (with perhaps one notable exception) people who - brace yourself - DID NOT BUY THE BOOK. Even now, in a discussion which comes down to a handful, only 2 of us did. THAT IS THE ISSUE. So, Clouds, if you need to believe that everyone who bought it hated it, go ahead. If that makes your world right, believe away. I will not and cannot argue that. Though I do not think we can ignore the numbers of people who have stated they LOVED the book. There are, I am sure, people who did not care for the book. We have heard from two of them, though one had no regrets. But why is it that the people complaining and calling foul are people who never bought the book? I will say it again - no, I will let my 4 year old nephew says this for me, here he is: thje ishew is not that peeple did noit lik the scareeey luukin mans buuk, but thet the peeple who r madest never bought 1. y, is that? thank you, four old nephew. As to the "revelation issue," I had the pleasure of watching a couple of people read their copies and have talked to others. Even on the Café people have shared their experience of the "dawning moment." I did not get that. I got an interesting book which made me think, a beautiful book which I have read several times. But I did not get that "aha" moment. Those who were protected got both. But I will agree with Doctor - for some people, that could be the most unimportant and uninteresting thing in the world to them. Those people were not the intended audience for the book. It was for those with an appreciation of "black humor." Finally, joey, I have always pointed out that that every marketing technique used in the Protocols has been used before. Never disagreed with that. You made some good points that you feel these techniques are manipulative and take advantage of our insecure nature. Possible. But it raises the question, why did this application "sting" so much? None of these techniques were new. And Minch placed safety nets in for those who were disapointed. If there is something you are trying to get me to see, I am not seeing it. I take the blame for that. But I am sincerely trying to see. And yes, as a reviewer I am very careful of that which I release in the magazines. But, even though I am a reviewer, I am also a magician like you and everyone else here. I like doing goofy magic things every now and then. And in spite of my friends who tell me this is a waste of time, I like reading the boards and commenting. But I will be clear, and maybe this time it will sink in: I have no interest in defending the Protocols. For some people, I am convinced it will be of no interest and no use. Their ad copy even stated that. So, I cannot or will not tell someone who thought it lousy that to them, it wasn't. But I do take issue with people making accusations of manipulation and impropriety which are both unfounded and untrue. And, AS A REVIEWER, I find people's reactions to this book, and other products, fascinating and important. As a reviewer I would much rather get into a heated debate or two and walk away understanding what the majority of magicians care about, and reflect that in my reviews, rather than assume everyone is like me. Brad |
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The Doctor Loyal user Gallifrey 265 Posts |
Brad, no one is denying that you knew what the contents of the book was and still bought one having made a conscious and informed choice. The problem is, why wasn't that choice extended to everyone else? The 'aha' moment you speak of is one that I have yet to experience and I do not believe I am an ignorant nor stupid man (though the purchase of this book has done me no favours). Perhaps you have a loftier intellect than I? Perhaps Mr Maven's sense of humour is so obscure than only the worthy need apply? Maybe that is what you are saying and maybe you are perpetuating an in-joke that only the privileged few are privy to? So please enlighten me and explain the 'dark humour' that you speak of and what this 'aha' moment consists of? Ultimately, that is the reason why it was marketed in such an objectionable way, is it not?
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Fair question. But I can only offer truly second hand accounts. My friend David read the book. He opened it. Looked at the first page. Then the second. (Admittedly, this did not take a long time). And after about 6 pages, he smiled. Then he flipped through the entire book, quickly. Instead of setting it aside, he then sat down and read every page. Afterwards we had a very interesting chat on the perception of magic by those inside it, those outside it, and the focus on the "Secret" being paid online.
I, on the other hand, opened up the book and got a lot of quotes to think about. I knew that is what I was getting. And I found some of the truly interesting. But, I did not get the "laugh" moment. Now, is that laugh moment worth $50. To you, maybe not. To me? Well, I wasn't afforded that experience. However, the ideas that book has allowed me to discuss, including that conversation with David, HAVE been worth $50. Even this thread, impossible without that book, has given me insights and ideas that have value to me. Had the book not engendered the feelings it did we would not be here. I would not have thought about the issues raised and enjoyed puzzlement over why so many who did not buy the book are so upset. And I am glad Joey has offered some ideas. While I do not agree with the conclusions, I think his observations are interesting and they will inform my future thinking and writing. There is another poster here that talked about their experience reading the book. First hating it, then liking it. How many books do that for us? How many magic books Books are more than mere vehicles for transmitting data. The best books move us, change us, make us feel. Does the Protocols achieve that? I won't be comparing it to Joyce or anything. But the book HAS changed the way we think about magic books and magic marketing and the meaning of secrets and the aftermarket and.... And for those reasons, it WAS worth $50 TO ME. But for someone with no interest in the above, I doubt it would have value to them at any price. Brad p.s. Several post have been made saying that if people knew the contents, none would have been sold. And that, as you have now stated, is untrue. A point I am happy to see made. |
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mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 10:22, The Doctor wrote: I had a totally different experience when I first opened the Protocols...the effect was one of surprise, fascination, and a desire to understand the point that Max Maven was making. I found the individual quotations to be interesting and the various possible interpretations of Maven's unique compilation to be thought provoking. In the end, I found the Protocols to be stimulating and quite satisfactory. I also enjoyed the subsequent uproar over the book and the escalation of its value as a collectible. It has a permanent place in my magic/mentalism library and I am very happy that I had the opportunity to procure a copy at its original price. If Minch and Maven decide to join forces to produce another limited edition publication, they can count me in. Quote:
On 2006-01-23 10:22, The Doctor wrote: I don't think that is necessarily a true statement. The number of dissenting buyers and the number of individuals offering their copies of Protocols for sale are quite small compared to the 400 plus apparently satisfied customers who are keeping their books. Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
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Rudy Sanchez Special user 907 Posts |
You can add another dissapointed buyer to the group!
Rudy Sanchez Any others?
www.cesaral.com
Sales Manager for Cesaral Magic |
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BIlly James Special user 991 Posts |
I guess the proof of the pudding lies here -
'Protocols Part 2'...available now for pre-orders... How many of the people who 'get it' are going to shell out money for this? :rotf: |
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The Doctor Loyal user Gallifrey 265 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 14:14, truthteller wrote: I equate that laugh moment (that you call it) akin to getting a custard pie in the face where, with gunk all over you face, you mutter to your assailant 'good one, you got me good with that one, ha ha ha' in a vain attempt to preserve a shred of dignity. |
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John LeBlanc Special user Houston, TX 524 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 14:14, truthteller wrote: Here and on other boards I refer to Protocols as one of my talisman books; like any other talisman, I like it for what it is -- it's attractive to look at, nice to hold -- but it's real value to me is in what it does between my ears. I purchased my copy just like the other (roughly) 499 others initially did, blind trust. I've read it cover to cover several times, and I can say I'm glad I bought my copy. John |
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ClouDsss Inner circle 1799 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 13:22, truthteller wrote: Definitely, there will be people who will buy the book. But this does not change the fact that there will also be people who will not buy the book. So why are they wrong? And I feel that its true (althou you wont believe it and like most of your claims which do not have concrete proof and is only by your own instints.) that the majority who has it now would not have bought it. Quote:
Second, whether one person disliked the book or 499 is STILL not the point. The point is, in this and in the other threads, those screaming the loudest and calling for the heads of these men were (with perhaps one notable exception) people who - brace yourself - DID NOT BUY THE BOOK. Even now, in a discussion which comes down to a handful, only 2 of us did. THAT IS THE ISSUE. So, Clouds, if you need to believe that everyone who bought it hated it, go ahead. If that makes your world right, believe away. I will not and cannot argue that. Though I do not think we can ignore the numbers of people who have stated they LOVED the book. like I mentioned, not everyone comes to the Café. But from the looks of how this book is constantly avaialble for sale, I believe its quite obvious and I have personaly experience from friends who have shown their disappointment, not only at the book, but also in their misplaced trust in the marketing. So my arguements, are not unfounded. Its just that you will only believe in it only if every single person comes here to post their greviences or happiness before you are willing to admit your mistake. But I beleive if this ever happens, you will just ignore it and pretend nothing was post so whats the diff anyway? Quote:
As to the "revelation issue," I had the pleasure of watching a couple of people read their copies and have talked to others. Even on the Café people have shared their experience of the "dawning moment." I did not get that. I got an interesting book which made me think, a beautiful book which I have read several times. But I did not get that "aha" moment. Those who were protected got both. But I will agree with Doctor - for some people, that could be the most unimportant and uninteresting thing in the world to them. Those people were not the intended audience for the book. It was for those with an appreciation of "black humor." Well, at the dawning moment, more were concerned of keeping the contents secret while others were complaining in the Café that they have no where to discuss something which they bought so I found your statement gives me a laughable moment Finally, ALL books, be it good or bad provoke some thoughts. Some more, some less and some give us a feeling "MAN why did I spend that 50!!" its also a thought so I guess you cant say that just because it provokes some thought, its a good book. But I have to agree that this book does make a very good conversational piece, be it negative or positive.
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
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Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1268 Posts |
ClouDsss, do you still own the Protocols book or did you sell your copy?
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
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ClouDsss Inner circle 1799 Posts |
Well, you see the main root of my grievence (might be unfounded to most I believe), was that I bought this book as a gift to one my nephew and it kinda affected me to see the apparent disappointed look in his face as he flipped through the pages. I did not know the reason then as I have never read the book. It was only thru some discussions from other friends who purchased it too that I learnt of its nature. unfortuantely, unlike truthteller, I do not know the 2 men personnally and hence, could not foresee the nature of this book and was really 'surprised'
Mind you, my nephew is a grown man and a follower of Maven's stuff. And he does smile when he sees inspirational quotes. But a whole book on that? I did not ask him for the exact reasons why he is disappointed, but since I bought the book for him, I feel that he wouldnt not tell me anyway. I doubt he would sell the book as its a gift. This is what I mean that this is a book that you either hate, or love, seldom in between. But it seems that truthteller feels that there is no grounds for any displeasure. Anyway, the problem is that he would have bought the book too, if I did not tell him before hand I was buying it for him. The reason why? it was because it was a book by the name of an author Maven and publisher Minch. that's why I feel that their names were a key factor in the marketing and no one would buy the book if one name was lacking of the other. Which, truthteller feels that this is once again another invalid point as its a marketing strategy that had been used before. Plus Minch has given buyers the option of returning for a refund. Why? I feel that Minch too knows the problem with some buyers with regards to the material inside. Till now, I regretted and felt that maybe I should have just got him a copy of The magic of ascanio instead, which would be more useful.
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
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Don McCleod Veteran user Coulsdon 360 Posts |
Hey Cloudsss, maybe you should get a signed affidavit from your nephew saying he doesn't like it and send it to Truthteller.
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ClouDsss Inner circle 1799 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 21:09, Don McCleod wrote: Man, I wouldnt even dare to mention the book in front of him. He did not say it outright that he disliked the book, but I am definitely certain I will never forget the disappointment that I brought to his face with the book and its real sad to me to know that I am the one to have done that on a special day.
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
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The Doctor Loyal user Gallifrey 265 Posts |
As a matter of interest does Minch extend the buy-back offer on all his books or just Protocols? The answer would be very telling.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
I have never doubted people did not like the book. And I think Minch also knew some would be unhappy, hence the buy back guarantee. So, I will not nor have I ever chosen to argue that some did not like it. Do I REALLY need to say that again?
I guess so. I have never argued that some did not like the Protocols. Do I need to say it a third time? Let's hope not. But, some people said: Quote:
On 2005-11-28 12:18, Mike M wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-20 05:58, joeyjojo wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-08 00:39, The Doctor wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-11 04:16, joeyjojo wrote: I disagreed with these exclamations and came here to offer a counter view. Rather than acknowledge the MANY people who have announced that they WOULD buy the book if given the chance again, a handful insist on claiming that this thread is about whether or not people like the book. So, here comes time number three. We have 3 people who bought the book who did not like it. So clearly, some people did not like the book. I fully expect there are many more people who did not like the book. I know there are lots of people who do not like lots of books. BUT it is innaccurate to say that NO ONE would have bought this book had they not known of its contents or that NO ONE, if given the opportunity would buy it again. Can I say that any simpler? Point 2: The integrity of Maven and Minch have been called into question: Quote:
On 2006-01-08 00:39, The Doctor wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-14 20:31, ClouDsss wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-13 07:34, The Doctor wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-16 06:56, joeyjojo wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-13 07:34, The Doctor wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-17 07:40, joeyjojo wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-19 09:35, The Doctor wrote: Quote:
On 2006-01-20 05:58, joeyjojo wrote: Are these accusations true? Is Minch's only goal to make money? Did he approach the project in an underhanded way? Did they exploit and manipulate? Are they never to be trusted again? Were people "hoodwinked?" Did Minch have a "backdoor plan?" Seems to me that these statements are more accusations than opinions. And unless some people have some facts to back things up, perhaps apologies are deserved. When you see things which are both wrong and hurtful being written about other human beings, do you stand idly by? But I think this post sums it up: Quote:
On 2006-01-14 21:32, Noel D wrote: And it comes to the third point I have tried to explore here, why the furor from those who did not buy? Brad |
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The Doctor Loyal user Gallifrey 265 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 22:04, truthteller wrote: No-one is disputing it wouldn't have sold (at least I don't believe so). However, if it would have sold regardless, then why market it in the way it was? Why offer the buy back? That has never been satisfactorily explained. What exactly was the point Maven was trying to make? |
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ClouDsss Inner circle 1799 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 22:04, The Doctor wrote: I would like to know this too. As its very telling on the way he himself knew the contraversies his marketing for protocols will make. I am not saying I will not trust Minch again or etc etc etc. My stand is with this book and this book's marketing so please do not get it all mixed up. I have bought many good books from Minch and will still buy if the marketing is not what it is as with protocols. I have his Life, Death and other card tricks, Tricks of the imagination, Tommy Wonder's books, etc. They are all good and I am satisfied. This is the reason why i, and many others have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to purcashing this book despite its marketed method, much less to say that its also a Maven production
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-23 22:14, The Doctor wrote: Well yes, look at the quotes above. Some people HAVE disputed that it would have sold. Look at the first post on this thread even. As to why? That would be discussed maybe 4 posts up. Remember? The whole "revelation aka joke aka 'getting it'" thing. Some enjoyed that experience. Others did not. But I think it was classy of Minch to both answer questions before sales as well as offer a complete refund to purchasers who were unsatisfied. Don't you? Hardly the actions of an underhanded manipulator, don't you think? Off to do a show in LA. Play nice while I'm away, k? Brad |
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