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truthteller
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Maybe neither of us do. My points, all along, have concerned baseless accusations and unsupported claims. People have said things on this thread that are simply not true - not opinions with which I disagree, mind you - but unfactual information.

Why should people be allowed to say things that are untrue? You saw for yourself, in the thread on the probability of card at any number, that when something untrue is said, it gets corrected.

There is no difference here EXCEPT this thread is not as clearly defined as the other one.

In your last post you made certain claims - suggesting these are what I believe - and of course the satire was obvious. However, if you like, we can discuss the claims you made, as in many ways you did a great job of summarizing some of those issues.

First, you claim no one other than purchasers should be allowed to criticize.

How can you have an opinion on a book you have not read? How can you claim you have been ripped off when you never invested any money?

To me, that seems obvious. Do you disagree, Harish?

In this thread, a lot of people were incensed who had no right to be. How can they claim to have been taken advantage of when they never bought the book? I think it comes down to their little fantasies having been crushed, perhaps. Afterall, that was the only investment THEY made.

But, Harish, can you defend the statement, that those who did not buy the book had a right to feel ripped off?

On top of this, in their furor to lambast M/M they said things which were patently untrue, and did not/could not back them up.

Harish, is it ever right for someone to do this?

As to having an opinion of the book, anyone who has read the book has a right to their opinion. But the posts which resulted in confrontation were NOT those where someone said, "I did not care for the book" but those that said M/M ripped people off, and then revealed they had never bought the book. (Or people who said, "no one would have bought this book had they known what it was about" when, to the contrary when know people did and would have.)

Again, HARISH, is it ever right for someone to say something on which they have no basis of knowing?

Do you see that difference, Harrish?

As to there being a killer secret, "killer" is a matter of opinion. I fully agree that some people may not have liked the book, or gotten value from it. You will find no argument from me there. I also feel that people engaged in a far to "jargon specific" reading of the word 'secret.'But, if they felt they were taken (having bought the book) they could have gotten a full refund.

Harrish, do you deny this as being true?

You and others have made statements regarding the buy back offer. In spite of wishful thinking, there was a buy back offer made, and it was in place before the book was released, though not advertised until after. Do you disagree with this? See, the posts concerning this were ones based on incorrect information, and like the math thread, needed to be corrected - especially when incorrect conclusions were drawn based on this faulty information. (Specifically, that the buy back HAD to be put in place as a result to overwhelming dissapointment from the buyers.)

Harish, should an incorrect history of events be allowed to stand, simply because someone wants it to be true? Or, Harish, should we stick with the facts?

As to the marketing, this approach to advertising is NOT new. I think that is worthy of consideration. The fact that the book sold out before its release - before the first ad hit the magazines - however surprised everyone. And I think the fact that people were unable to order created the "buzz" marketing which took off.

But the attempts to discuss the marketing of this book devolved into Anti-American/anti-capilatist rhetoric that went nowhere. I think a discussion of the marketing of magic is appropriate, however one should not become upset when they learn that these techniques have been used before, in our field and others. But I have no problem with people being unhappy witht he marketing of the book, and the issues it raises. However, they really need, once again, to base their opinions on the ACTUAL marketing of this book, and not make up nonsense that never happened. My problem was not with people being unhappy with the marketing, but with the incorrect information on which they were supporting their arguments.

Harish, should arguments built on innacurate or historically empty facts be allowed to stand without being called into question?

But to the larger issue, we as a community focused almost entirely on the "secret" of the book. Which, I personally found telling. However, I feel that the "secret" issue was misrepresented here, and elsewhere.

The "Secret" and the contents are two different things. Minch asked that the contents not be discussed so those who bought the book could have the experience which was intended for the readership. As for facts, look at the email he sent out. That is the only thing any of us have to go on.

And unless you have information to the contrary, do you not see how you are guilty of the crimes of misrepresntation already dicussed, Harish?

Any actions by other parties can not be blamed on either Minch or Maven. If you have problems with people getting banned, then that needs to be taken up with the people who made those decisions. I think you will find they have a different address from either the publisher or author of this book.

So, it is clear above all else, that people's imaginations have fueled far more misunderstandings concerning this book than an objective reading of the facts. This is not about my being right or wrong, Harish. If it were, I would make stuff up like the others have.

In magic, and in magic forums, we have developed this weird group mind. One person says one thing, another repeats it, it evolves, soon you have a "movement." Perhaps this explains why horrible products get such followings.

But the problem is when these followings, good or bad, are based on untruths.

And this thread has been rampant with untruths and fantasies masquerading as fact (Bone's famous 99% statistic, for example.)

So, I am not here to praise the Protocols, nor to condemn it. If people hated it, so be it. They are FULLY entitled to their opinion.

But the issues surrounding the book need to be discussed HONESTLY. And only by acknowledging the FACTS can this occur. Based on your post, you seem to have a disdain for facts. Do you not think that facts should back up claims Harish?

Otherwise, we have a thread built only on lies.

Is that what you want, Harrish?

Brad

And once again, I do find myself repeating myself. Why? Because time and time again we see people making the same baseless claims or drawing the same conclusion based on innacurate information.

Perhaps people would not need to repeat themelves is those who were making the same claims would either establish the facts on which they are making their claims with any sort of evidence or at the least contradict those fact as stated by others with evidence to the contrary.

This thread and my posts are NOT about opinions, but about baseless accusations and the correcting of those spewing innacurate information.

So, Harish, Bone, etc., when you make the alleged factual claims you have, can you back any of them up?

So far, the answer has been, "no."
bonedaddi
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Let's begin with baseless claims: I alluded you were a Nazi and you accused me of hating magic - That's base.

Onward

'Bone has still not answered our question. He keeps omnisciently offering the conclusion that everyone who bought it bought it from mis-reading the ad, but cannot show us how that ad would lead to any misunderstanding.'

I said no such thing. My point is that the ad wetted an appetite and people bought on the faith of Hermetic press and Max Maven. The ad was, in my omniscient opinion, a cry out into the night and people bought the book without blinking an eye. When the book arrived however, many were shocked as to its contents - By the time people began expressing their opinions on these boards the book was already sold out and showing its face on e-bay. Brad on these boards insisted that the contents of the book remain a secret and that's where I took issue. Why not discuss the contents of the book to allow future buyers a sense of what they might be getting into?

In terms of facts, how bout this zinger:

On Jan 19 Brad dismissively wrote: The reality of the world of magic is that young magicians RARELY buy books, almost never at the $50 price point.

Really? I know many young magicians who buy nothing but books and who who have forked well over $50+ for their favorite book. Would it have hurt anybody to say after it had sold out, that 'Protocols' was a book of collected quotes that can inspire lively debate? What irked me was that a cone of silence that lasted close to a month was imposed for really no good reason. And no, I wasn't trying to pry information - I had already seen the book and was shocked and was curious if the paying public was also shocked. Also a fever was starting and I thought it would be a reasonable gesture to inform young buyers or old buyers, rich or poor what the hype was all about.

That's it. That's all.

Kindly

Bonedaddi
truthteller
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Some quotes from Bone, you can decide if he backed them up, or not:

Quote:
The fact still remains that many people bought the book expecting some kind of practical secret and were sorely dissapointed when it turned out to be something very different.

I will go out on a limb here and posit that 99 % of all the buyers thought they were buying into some kind of limited run of a practical magical secret.

If the book had been offered as a cool pondering of magical semiotics I would have been amazed if 25 copies had found their way off the shelves.

The truth is people bought the book regardless of the ad, because they thought they were getting something special - something secret.

there was a profound disappointment after all the dust began to settle

I will go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of buyers assumed there was some practical effect hidden between the pages


Notice the words : "the truth is," "the fact remains," "the majority...assumed," "99% of all buyers thought,"...

These are stated as fact, yet I see no evidence to support these claims. I have asked if he has any. But all we get is smoke and mirrors.

As to my quote, let us look at it in context, may we:

joeyjojo wrote:

Quote:
Then along came the pre-sale technique that pounced on the insecurities of [predominantly young] enthusiasts who didn't want to feel left out/behind, so they bought something before reviews became available.


I replied:
Quote:
Second, Joey suggests this technique is designed to manipulate younger buyers. I have had this charge levied at me once. And it is unfounded. I do not know how old you are Joey, but if you are young I will tell you that you are thinking a lot "older" than others your age. That is a compliment. The reality of the world of magic is that young magicians RARELY buy books, almost never at the $50 price point, and probably unheard of when it isn't about tricks.

When I released my SBT at $50, one detractor accused me of taking advantage of the youth in magic. He had no idea of how the magic marketplace worked. If it were a dvd, some young people may have bought it. But no kid is forking out $50 for a book. And based on the personal sales I did, only one young person bought it and he knew me and the routine personally. So, I cannot agree that this was a conspiracy against the magic youth.


So, my basis for this claim was not only the sales of my own products but conversations with those in the field of the magic marketplace - wholesalers, creators, jobbers, and dealers. Before releasing my products, I had been informed that the book market sees little activity from young people. DVD's and tricks are the preferred media for these people. I did not say that no young people buy them, but based on commentary on these forums (where many young people talk about not being able to learn from books) and my conversations with those who are expert in matters of magic commerce, I made my statement and stand by it. How many books has Pengiun or Ellusionist printed versus how many DVD's?

Nice try though. (Would have made more sense had you asked for clarification then instead of searching for something to distract us from your unbased claims.)

I am sorry you are still sore that I outed you about the hypocrisy. The comment about you hating magic had far more to do with "the other book" than this one. But you said something which contradicted yourself. We must stand by our words.

So, once again, I will repeat that this is not about people's opinions of a book. It is about insuring the facts on which discussion is based remain accurate. I am sorry that not everyone here is as interested in facts, but I am kind of a stickler for such things.

Brad

Hope to follow up on the wonderful post made earlier about the influence of the Protocols on the magicians' work. I can only speak for myself, but it has informed my thoughts.
Tony Iacoviello
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I'm glad this thread has not devolved into childish bickering.
Take it to personal emails or PMs. One-up's-manship is not being shown, ego and immaturity are!

Tony
enigmax
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Given Max's interest in eastern philosophies, it is possible that the book and attending fuss is meant to serve as an extended zen koan. The image of Mr. Maven as a giggling monk clouting people over the head with a stick to shake them out of ingrained patterns of thought is hard to resist (...must...resist...image).

I have the book. I like the book. I appreciated the joke. Now I will go and overfill my teacup.
"To be on the wire is life, the rest is waiting"
Karl Wallenda
harishjose
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What joke, Enigmax? Care to explain . Be sure to tell the truth!
To believe is Magic.
Jonathan Townsend
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Are we still on about this book?

It's not gonna be useful for most here.

Like having a copy of "Nightmare Alley"... for most of the gang, why?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Payne
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Quote:
On 2006-03-30 19:44, harishjose wrote:
What joke, Enigmax? Care to explain . Be sure to tell the truth!

For those who get the joke no explanation is necessary.

Those who don't no explanation will suffice.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
enigmax
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Not being Australian, I can't provide an explanation of the joke. To me the joke is a "meta" joke. The message of the book is the exact opposite of the contents of each page. Of course I could be deluding myself wildly on this.

There is an apropos quotation from Mark Twain (or Twine), a no-prize to the first person to supply the quote I'm thinking of.
"To be on the wire is life, the rest is waiting"
Karl Wallenda
Larry Barnowsky
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Here's something that Twain said which may not be what you were thinking:

"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed."
truthteller
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"Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated." - Mark Twain
enigmax
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And a genuine no-prize goes to Mr. Truthteller (may I call you Truth?)

Max
"To be on the wire is life, the rest is waiting"
Karl Wallenda
truthteller
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Aww heck, you can call me Brad.
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