Okay... this is getting pretty pitiful. No wonder these churches won't hire you folks. Let's stop the Christian/church bashing. There is far too much bashing in the world of magic. "Turn the other cheek" and let's put the "judging" behind us.

I think one of the most ironic things, is that some people get so judgmental of Christians for being judgmental of others.

If being judgmental is a bad thing, lead by example in not being judgemental of those being judgmental. Duh!

Otherwise, you are acting hypocritical. Saying you believe one thing (that being judgmental is bad), yet acting as if you don't believe it (acting judgmental yourself). Everyone is judging each other over what they perceive to be wrongdoing on the other person's part.



Even though this might possibly come across to the prospect as a little harsh, I would agree that this might be a reasonable approach for certain performers who are having problems with cancellations over this reason. I wouldn't use it personally. I have found other strategies that work well for me.

- Donald

If you read my post..you will note I was NOT referring to ALL "christians".

And Donald...as you probably know..It's all in the WAY YOU SAY IT...as much or more than the words themselves...Kinda hard to portray that with only the written word here.

Last visit to this thread...On to more productive ones.
Mark

Mark -

The comment about being judgmental wasn't to you, but put out there in general, for people to reflect on.

Like I said, you gave some nice advice, that might be helpful to some.

Insanity doesn't rule in every post on this thread. Hehehe!

- Donald

I think one of the best attempts, above, to analyze what really happened, was the "keep peace in the family" post - a church full of reasonable people and one member going "Omigod, that's deviltry!" - let's not upset brother and sister Jones too badly, we'll find some other entertainment. Running a church involves shepherding the entire church family. Even though the majority of the flock never give you any trouble, there are a few easily-spooked lambs in any flock and they, too, need care and consideration.

What is the job of the pastor and (by extension) the church representative? First and foremost, to care for the congregation. Just, in this case, the duty didn't mix well with the ordinary process of business in the outside world.

That said, regarding "respecting their point of view" [in reference to those who see prestidigitators as tools od Satan], I just don't. They're there, they're always going to be there, but in my view they're not only annoying, they're missing the point so badly that they make the more mature among us sick. Kinda like the folks who want all movies and television, and every book in the library, to be fit for the smallest child. As my old Bible teacher used to point out (chapter and verse), some of us can only handle milk, others have graduated to meat - you don't cram meat down the throats of the babes, but it's just insane when the toddlers waggle their fingers and say "no, no, that's bad" to those who are more mature and who need stronger fare.

You want acrimony (approaching the level of venom)? Just move this to the "gospel magic" topic. Many posters there are thoughtful and gentlemanly, but many others are barely able to contain their impatience with divergent views and a few are just unable to participate in open discussion when challenging opinions are aired.

That's not offered to tar all Christians with the same brush (I'm a Christian myself). But when I see views so deeply held that people react with fear and hostility when people with opposing views demand consideration, well... I sometimes picture Methodist suicide bombers trying to take out those darned Presbyterians.

Fellows, please remember to respect others opinions/beliefs, regardless if you agree or disagree with them. If you disagree, state it in a manner that is objective, not subjective. Some posts have gone overboard on this subject while others have shown to be helpful. Remember, this forum is Magicians Helping Magicians. And, these holidays coming up is supposed to spread good cheer.

Glenn

This whole thread has been over blown. One the question had been asked of "Are there really people who don't know the difference between Theater and demonstrations of supposed "psychic powers" the answer should have been yes. We could have then all moved forward and gotten on with our lives.
But no we had to partake of the classic INTERNET activity of beating the ground where a dead horse was a week ago.
So the answer to the original post is, yes, some people (and just not those who go to church) are that naive. They will waste your time and either complain about your show or cancel it unexpectedly and for what you think are silly reasons.
It happens, life goes on and little is to be gained from complaining about it.

I am a Christian and I am not offended that they cancelled for philosophical reasons but they did not live up to there commitment to pay you. I guess a contract is needed.

Hey guys remember back in the old days where all magic catalogs had that disclaimer about nothing supernatural is used in the accomplishment of performing magic? It was always pretty prominent. Maybe for the rare instance this becomes an issue, a little extra bandwidth is saved for a similar disclaimer. Not sure if it would help, but couldn't hurt.

Oh and about that quote about not being duped by a guy in a tail? It makes me nervous, I think my loan officer at my credit union had one of those.

Frank Tougas

Alan, the title of your post "Are church folks really this naive?" is inflammatory and provocative. How can you say that it is not an attack on church folk. Now I won't claim to be much of a christian, but I find the tone and attitude of your posts to be quite negative. Perhaps the church picked up on your dismissive attitude about their concerns. Could it possibly be that your lack of understanding led to you losing the gig? Just something you might want to reflect on.

I'm a strong Christian and I see absolutely nothing wrong with "magic", anymore than I see something wrong with medicine, nuclear science, nanotechology or weather forecasting... none of which I really understand, nor do most people, but yet... the people who practice those things do amazing things.

Heck, my MECHANIC does amazing things when my car doesn't work. He waves his wrench and then makes it work...

I know this will sound like a shameless plug, but illusionist Andre Kole and I co-authored the book "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena" with some of the questions in mind that this thread has raised.

It is not just some "church folk" who see magic in this light, but many "unchurched" see it this way also.

Those in the church understand that the Bible teaches there is a cosmic battle taking place between the forces of good and evil. Unfortunately, I believe they tend to attribute more power to the forces of evil than the Bible does.

I have posted on this in the past for anyone who cares to search my thoughts out.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=16

Perhaps that thread will help the reader understand why there is so much "magical" thinking in the church, as well as give a reasonable response to that type of thinking.

Terry

HA!! That was funny!

I'll ask the question my wife keeps asking me: why not insist on a deposit from EVERYBODY?

Cause I'm a trusting soul and rely upon the fact that I've never been stiffed by a client. Not event the church groups I've performed for.

Hi,
I agree with you Payne as I said in an earlier post I have had the odd show cancelled through the birthday child being ill or family tragedy but I have had the odd cancell on me with a legit reason. I think it does you more bad than good to keep deposits on cancelled shows anyway... makes me think how hard up for money some of the people on the Café here are.. particularly with all the marketing people seem to do and the 50 shows a month!

Phillip

Well, P.B, when I gotta pay the mortgage, and:

the neighbor (when I get to a completely empty house) says "I think they went to Chuck E Cheeses" ...

when somebody who finally answers at the vanished client's number the next day says "Oh, that event was cancelled" ...

when the mother of the kid who had to cancel the day before the show due to the kid's flu one week says, regarding the rebooking three weeks later, that she has to cancel the day before the show because he has the flu again ...

when it's perfectly clear that they just don't care about the commitment they made (like the church the OP originally posted), it calls one's dedication and trust into serious question.

It only happens rarely, but it stings. I don't ask for deposits because I really believe it kills more bookings than it saves, but when it happens, it hurts.

I have gone ridiculously far to honor my commitments, to show up despite very good reasons (I have gotten off an operating table to work a picnic in the summer sun as soon as they'd let me out of the recovery room, and I drove myself home afterward - my wife doesn't let me pull stunts like that anymore). So when the customer just doesn't give a hoot ... [*sigh*] ... is there a reward in heaven for a poor old stupid magician?

A phone call to the event planner a day before showtime will likely cure all of these problems (as far as saving you a wasted trip anyway). Although I do not a require deposit, I do email them a fake contract. It is fake because I do not ask them to sign it or return it. It is amazing how well it works though, people take it very seriously. It simply states when I require notice of cancellations, how much we agreed upon, the date & time of the event, overtime rate, performance area requirements, and my right to send a substitute performer if I am sick. But most important is to CALL and stay in touch with the planner. They are so busy sometimes Ross, it is likely they totally forgot about you.

I hate to post this however in a thread like this one and keep it going.

Maybe a moderator could lock it as both sides agree that it is getting nowhere.
Too bad.

HI Ross
I do see your point,I have a morgage (in fact more than 1) too, but in all honesty how often does this happen shows being cancelled? not often in my experience,if it did I would be looking at my shows, appearance, manor ext (this is not pointed at anyone)and I do not think it does the performer any good to take the money anyway lets say there are 50 families who are part of the church group (example)2 families objected to the magic, if you keep there deposit or insist on payment you risk losing work from 50 families and people they tell just for the sake of $500 or so if just 2 or 3 of those 50 families booked you in the future you will more than recoup any losses particularly if you have a good show!
ontop of that you come accross as an understanding proffesional performer.
Phillip

Ummm.... that isn't what happened.

When checking the web site, the Chruch felt the person they hired was involved with things they did not agree with, so cancelled him.

That is called voting with your checkbook.

Like it or not, people will do that, and do so all the time.