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scaress Veteran user salt lake city 337 Posts |
Derren brown said for his séance he selected his audience, so everyone participating was more inclined to believe what he was doing was real.
Has anyone attempted to select your audience (for a paid show)? Do you just rely on your advertising/marketing to attract the right type of spectator? Has anyone sent potential problem spectators away before starting a show? |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Scaress:
My most challenging seance to date was for a room full of skeptics at the Center For Inquiry West in Hollywood. I had no control over the audience, and knew going into the show what its audience would be. I enjoyed it -- no one, of course, believed that spirits had manifested themselves, but fooling the audience provided a real thrill. For that reason, I wouldn't try to cherry pick an audience; instead, I tweak my performance accordingly. A room full of skeptics gets the straight, dead-on serious version, while believers may get a more tongue-in-cheek presentation -- a lighter version not intended to bolster their spiritual views. I'm a Magician, and as such my primary duty is to entertain my audience. But there's part of me that derives great subversive satisfaction out of FOOLING them, too, especially if they they're too wise to be fooled. For whatever it's worth, I'd not discourage skeptics, but prepare for them instead Leland |
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scaress Veteran user salt lake city 337 Posts |
Thanks Leland,
That's good advice. my seance is going to be about 10 spectators. my goal is to make them believe in ghosts until the end when I explain that I'm a magician. I'm planning on audience testing that before I settle on a permanent show. DB's seance gave me the idea of selecting spectators, I was curious if anyone else does that. |
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ptbeast Special user Oregon 831 Posts |
While that may work for a television special, if you want to do a paid show, I don't think you will have that luxury. How you choose volunteers and what role you have people play within the séance is, of course, another matter...
Dave |
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Hello Scaress,
I see two major problems with the goals you've set for yourself: 1. You cannot make anybody, let alone a roomful of people, believe in ghosts, Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Big Bang theory in one hour. It simply won't happen. 2. Even if, through some inexplicable alignment of the stars, you could turn them all into believers, to then dowse them with cold water and tell them it was all trickery not only cheats your audience of the gift of magic and wonder you had given them up to that point, but packs tremendous potential for making them all feel like idiots. As an entertainer, I don't think these are desirable goals to set. Personally, I tell my audiences that they will experience a historical reenactment of the way people attempted to contact the spirits 80 years ago. That's it: no disclaimers, no personal opinions on the subject. In this way, the seance doesn't set out to prove anything or carry any other sort of agenda. Some will believe it's real, some will think it's fake, and some won't immediately know what to think -- but all will have to reach their conclusions as a result of their own experience and investigation. And if I can make my audience think in the guise of entertaining them, I feel I've done my job. I hope this helps you. Best, Neil Tobin
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
What Derren did on TV and what he did in his live show were two different things. The seance was the second half of his touring show for a year.
He was successful with his approach to a seance, but it is a very difficult thing to pull off. There are many ways to engage an audience and still let them know that what they are seeing is only show. It is not easy to do this balancing act. The folks that did the seance in the Lizzie Borden house had a nice way of handling it. They gave the audience members a small gift at the end of the performance. Including with this gift was a program that identified the actors and the roles they played. It's a subtle way to get your message across and not have people think it is real when it's not. |
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scaress Veteran user salt lake city 337 Posts |
Wow,
a lot to think about. thanks everyone for the input. |
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Thoughtreader Inner circle Calgary, Alberta, Canada 1565 Posts |
It still boils down to the fact that if people believe - there is no telling them different and the ones that chose not to believe will not believe.
PSIncerely Yours, Paul Alberstat |
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MindStepper New user 5 Posts |
Scaress,
Neil gave you great advice, regarding your original idea of making your sitters believe in spirits, then, after an hour of seance, revealing to them it was all a sham, that you are a magician. Please heed his advice. Read on, if you'd like personal experience in this matter: While in college, we were doing a mystic play, and as a credit assignment, I arranged for the class to visit my home, and have a medium take us all through a seance. I had planned to reveal that it was all just a sham, a matter of good magic tricks at the end of the seance. The person I had trained was not experienced in magic, had only three effects to perform, and blew all three effects badly...to the sitters, it appeared that the ghosts were not responding to her....she left, per the plan, and I was to reveal the big secret....fortunately, right before the reveal, I passed out papers to everybody, inquiring as to their take on the evenings events. I expected to be very disappointed, anticipating that they would all complain about the poor showing of the spirits....while they were filling out the papers, they chatted amongst themselves, and without exception, they were all very excited about sitting in on a real seance....when nothing manifested itself magically, they supplied manifestations in their imaginations....some said they noticed a distinct drop in the room temperature, others asked if we had a typewriter that they could check, as they were positive that they heard a tapping noise, as if a spirit were trying to communicate... some heard a distant but distinct moaning noise, almost a keening they said....without exception, everybody was very impressed with their "real" seance.... I quickly realized that if I told them it was a sham, I would make them all feel like perfect fools...so I wisely just shut up, said nothing...to this day they probably all speak happily ( and probably embellish the events) of their seance... So, my advice to you is not to go down the road you described...it will create negative feelings towards you. Incidentally, approximately a third of all people believe in communicating with spirits, a third disbelieve in it, and a third are somewhere in the middle. Your job would be to work on the middle third, and the negative third...from personal experience, I tell you that they all will change their minds, immediately after a good seance....the skeptical third may revert to form a few days later, but immediately after, they all believe...it's a bit like there are no atheists in a fox hole, during wartime... Hope this is of some help. Verne
MindStepper
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
I hate almost everything in Verne's post. I strongly disagree with his opinion on this subject and feel there is nothing acceptable about allowing people to believe that what they have experienced is anything more than a magic show.
It is easy to mislead people into believing what they are experiencing is true phenomenon. It is also evil. The ancedote he presented shows he was clearly unprepared for the response he got and was ill-equiped to handle the situation. To leave people with a delusion was just misguided. To confess the reality of the situation would have made him look like a fool, but it would have been the honest thing to do. To stay quiet was just cowardly. He was not doing a service to anyone except himself. Seances are heavy stuff and should not be undertaken without a GREAT deal of thought. I have known a number of mediums that have been complete frauds, but have told the public what they do is real. They have the guts to stand flat-footed, lie to the public but be honest to themselves about their deceit. They know what they are doing is wrong and they don't try to justify it. I have much more respect for them than I do for the people that are dishonest with the public because, "some people will believe no matter what." That is an attempt to justify an immoral stance. Of course, since this is a semi-free country, you can do whatever you please with your performance. Just know that the position Verne put forth is not fact. Don't let his statement of unfounded statistics fool you. It is, as is this post, just one person's opinion. |
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Bill Fienning Special user 635 Posts |
I explain when I invite the sitters to my seance that I am attempting to reproduce the "look and feel" of a turn-of-the-century spirit seance. (I am not doing a turn-of-the-century seance since the things those mediums did would probably not impress a modern audience.)
Because I am usually performing for a rather sophisticated audience, they are not likely to believe, with or without my "pre-disclaimer," that the seance was real. The one time that someone was somewhat convinced, I was careful to explain afterward that it was a Theatrical Experience. I avoided the direct use of the word "trick." I believe that I was successful in convincing the person that they had been entertained with theatrical special effects, rather than fooled with magican's tricks.
Bill Fienning
"It's More than Tricks" |
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Mystician Inner circle Wallachia 3485 Posts |
Is there a difference between misleading people into believing what they are experiencing as true phenomena, and allowing them to lead themselves into believing ?
I know, that's a loaded question .. But the underlying point being, Verne didn't setup a typewriter sound effect, nor a moaning effect, nor did he touch the thermostat, as far as we know from what he wrote, those people entirely brought those preconceptions into the seance with them, not as a direct result of his performance. Where I agree that it is irresponsible to mislead people into believing in a fraudulent seance, I have to disagree with a philosophy which says, (my quotes) "conceding that people who truly believe, will believe no matter what", is cowardly. That's harsh ! There is a saying: "You can't really change people's minds, you can only help them realize they wanted to change it anyway" or something along those lines. Case in point: look at the alpha project scientists that Steve Shaw fooled - they were in denial even after he explained his trickery. They accepted some of the test results as tainted, but they still clung to their fundamental belief that some of the coincidences he exploited were true feats of psychic ability.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
There is a difference between allowing their belief and helping their belief. Regardless of what people believed, they can to his seance. He set it up and invited people to a setting that was not inherently theatrical. That is the danger.
A seance is something that many believe in and therefore as a performer is it our responsiblity when performing fraudulent phenomenon to let the audience that they are experiencing a theatrical performance. It was his performance and therefore he has to take responsibility as a performer for what happens there. All performers in any kind of performance must do this. That's part of our job. I can't accurately comment on the Alpha Project and its results as I am only familiar with the general history of the event and not the details. The question is what were the scientist's belief before the project and how were they different after the event? It is hard to believe that a scientist went into the project neutral and came out a believer. It seems that the motive of the project was to show bias in researchers and flaws in testing. And to not only show this to people involved, but also to the world at large. ---- Bill brought up out a good point. There are many ways to establish the reality that the seance is merely a theatrical performance without the use of a disclaimer. If you wish to foster a belief in the supernatural, that's fine. That is your right. You need to make a choice and take responsiblity for it. |
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ptbeast Special user Oregon 831 Posts |
Todd,
I agree with what you are saying, but a word in defense of Verne. Scaress had a stated goal of making people believe in ghosts until the end when it would be revealed that they had been fooled by a magician. Verne advised against such an approach and shared his experience. He pointed out that if you make people believe that something is real (i.e. are not up front with them from the beginning) it can be very difficult to dissuade them latter, and even if successful, they will not appreciate it. I believe he is correct on this point. While you and I may not agree with how the situation was handled, the advise he was giving was sound. If what you are doing is to be theatre, make it known from the beginning. Otherwise people are likely to think that you are insulting their intelligence. I think if you carefully read Vern's post again, you will see that there is not reason to "hate almost everything" in it, even if you don't agree with how he handled that particular situation. Am I splitting hairs? Maybe, but I think Verne's underlying advice was sound. Just my two cents worth. Dave |
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scaress Veteran user salt lake city 337 Posts |
Wow, lots to think about.
how about this. When selling the tickets I emphisise that this is for entertainment only. then I open with a pretty obvious magic trick, I was thinking about levitating a match while I talk about the mysteries of life and death. And I don't explain anything unless someone appears disturbed by what they've seen. what do you think about that? |
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ptbeast Special user Oregon 831 Posts |
Scaress,
These are issues that each of us has to deal with. You have to perform in a way that is consistent with your beliefs and in keeping with your conscience. My approach is to make it clear in my marketing, ticket sales, and anything else preshow that what I am doing is theater. Once the curtain goes up -- so to speak -- I don't return to the issue. When I go to a play, I don't expect that actors to tell me it is a play, I already know and would be insulted if I felt they needed to spell that out for me. This can be tricky in our area, because the manner in which we present things could lead some people to believe that it is real. After the show is over, I don't exactly give out any further disclaimers, but am willing to discuss it with my guests. Unlike the situation above, they don't feel like they have been tricked and made fools of because they knew that it was theatre from the beginning. As I said above, I would strongly advise against telling people it is real, only to turn the tables on them at the end. Most will not be amused. Good luck with your show. I hope it goes well. Dave |
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Yankeemage New user 4 Posts |
He, he... I love hearing a carney telling folks why they can't con others...
Love ya Todd! I'm of the old school so I do solicite belief when we stage the Seance. HOWEVER, everything around it, all of the advertising, media coverage, etc. states very directly that it is an interactive play -- the "recreation" of a real Victorian era Seance. Rick Maue has a thing he talks about from time to time called "Theatrical Belief" i.e. invoking genuine heart felt belief during the time of the show or demonstration but allowing the patrons to know that everything they experience is non-threatening and most certainly, not of teh paranormal realms. At the same time, Rick talks about a thing he calls "Cerebral Magick" e.g. the impression sets into the subconscious mind and "haunts" our patrons long after the fact. This was a very common elment sewn into the yesteryear shows -- the performers neither admitting to or negating the validity of what was presented, allowing guests to decide for themselves and at the same time, enjoy the fantasy that it just may have been "real" (even if it's just a little bit). I happen to be a walking, talking dichotomy in that I do work the shut eye market as a Reader while likewise working shows at night. The two actually work hand in hand with one another, but then I'm not out doing birthday party shows... the only shows I do have some kind of psychic or paranormal theme to them, so they hold to the character I have when working as a Reader and vice versa... it all adds to the illusion of reality... it's a strange tightrope upon which to tread, but that's the old school way of doing it. Best of luck! |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-18 19:29, Yankeemage wrote: Oh Craig, I never said people shouldn't con others. I only asked that they be honest in their deceit. I KNOW you of all people understand that. |
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Bizarre New user USA 23 Posts |
I realize that with your “No Deceit” sign at the top of your website you are somewhat married to your view (or is that deceit???). You do realize it is just one man's view too????? I doubt this will change your view, just as a seance is not going to change anyone's world view.
Honest in their deceit??? Is that a honest statement? Todd, I think you are pulling the wool over your own eyes. Either that are you are trying to pull the wool over ours - I'm not quite sure. The first two sentences on your website, that if held by your strict standard, were deceitful. “Todd Robbins is the world's foremost purveyor of reality at it's most amazing -- He is the classiest act to ever grace the stage of the American Sideshow.” Now I know it is just hype. Is it deceitful? Yes. Do I care? No. I have never caught your act, but I am sure you are very good. “worlds’s foremost & classiest act” are going to be difficult to prove. I don’t hold your deceit against you. Your idea of "no deceit" is a common reaction by magicians. We want people to believe, yet we don’t want to be classified in the same category as palm readers. Either that or we want to impress them with our manipulation. We, as a society live for deceit - from plastic surgery to hair implants, colored contact lenses. We spend beyond our means to appear richer than we are, we drive SUVs that never get any mud on them, much less a scratch, to build our ego. We inflate our job titles so we can appear to be something we are not. Withholding information is deceit. I was taught in Sunday School never to tell a lie - but we all know that if we lived by that we would not stay married long. I eat fire and do a bed of nails. I doubt you tell people that the fire rarely burns and it isn’t that dangerous. If you do, then I am sure people don’t believe you. Then we get onto the idea of truth. If there is a truth, than how do we recognize it? The science of relativity tells us there is only perspective, never truth. This is not saying that everything is perspective. To add to this confusion, if all seances are fake, then a fake seance is real isn’t it??????? Ultimately, we all are deceptive every day. I have no problem with is as long as we mean no harm anyone or take advantage of anyone. I agree that people will believe or disbelieve depending on their world view. You are not going to change a person's underlining presuppositions with a seance, period. They will interpret what they see from their perspective. I will reinforce what ever perspective they have. If they are a Christian than it is demons. If they are truly atheist they will come up with ways the tricks were done (not always with any bases in reality). If they believe in VooDoo, then so on. Before I went bizarre, people use to describe routines I never did - yet they saw them at my show. Without deceit all magic tricks would not be entertaining. Even when we tell them it is just a trick, we have to deceive them into thinking they saw something that never happened. We must prey on their presuppositions in a Bobo switch! I spent my younger years in pursuit of truth. I got a degree in philosophy. I studied physics. I haven’t found it. Everyone that chants of truth, I have observed, held a “crainiorectal” position. As my eastern friends would put it, “It is not that there is no truth, but it is a wrong question.” When I perform, I tell them I was a magician, and that got me interested in the spiritual and that everything I am doing is real. That's what they pay to see. If you tell them it is just tricks, you have lost the majority of the entertainment value. Many people want to be scared. I don’t know why they want to be sacred, I am not one of them. There is a plethora of horror TV shows and movies. If I held Todd's view then I would be enraged at all the preacher's since I think that organized religion is a bunch of hoo haw. The same with Hollywood. I think the key thing is not taking advantage of them. Not telling them dead aunt Maggie said she needs you to pay you money to get her out of purgatory. Not making major decisions for them. Leave that for the moral majority. So what if people believe in spirits? So what if people are Christian? I respect Christians views even though I believe them to hold as much deception as Vern’s seance. I come from a native background, and I grew up with magic - supposedly the real stuff. People used it to cope with life, as in all religions. So what? How does it hurt anything? In true magician style, I must tell you everything I have said here is a lie - including this statement. or The truth is there is no truth. Enjoy. If this makes any readers mad, I am sorry, but savor your maddness while it lasts! (Bizarre's wife with her ear to the ground) Run Bizarre! I can hear the the posse comming! They are comming to hang you! |
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Joe Xavier Regular user Borneo Islands 149 Posts |
Wow... speechless.
Definitely a food for thought. But why the big fuss over whats true and whats not? In my humble opinion, the magician should tell spectators that its a reenactment or whatever, in the beginning, but during the seance, should ANYTHING happen (spirits still exist y'know) to the spectators personally, I think its best to let them keep it as their memory of the event. For example, after disclaimer and confirmation with spectators, you proceed with the seance. But somehow, one of the spectator feels connected to the event and in her own view, the seance has touched her personally. It could be a memory of a loved one or it could even be something personal to her. I think its wrong for the magician to tell the spectator its all tomfoolery. I can almost connect this to a simple ring flight routine I heard in this forum. One where a spectator's wedding band disappears and in its place is a note that says that the wedding band is not as important as the love that connects two people. This may seem to be a simple ring flight but in reality, it touches the spectator who uses it. The emotional impact is strong. This same theory goes for the seance... |
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