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Cameron Francis
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Anyone checked this out over at full52.com? Nice looking effect.

Here's the blurb:

Effect: A pair of cards are removed from the deck, let's say the Jokers for example. A card is freely selected and signed across the face before being lost back into the deck. The two Jokers are shown front and back, there are only two cards and they do not go near the deck. With a little flick, a face down card appears in between them. This card is removed and shown to be the signed selection. It really is as straight forward as that!
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
Cameron Francis
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Took the plunge and ordered this. Fantastic quick effect. Very easy to do. I highly recommend this to anyone who loves sandwich effects or just plain visually stunning magic.
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
Dave Forrest
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Cameron,

I e-mailed you about the control in the demo.

Dave.
Cameron Francis
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Got it. Thank you, sir. Brilliant control. Can't wait to learn it!
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
weepinwil
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For those who are considering purchasing this effect, be advised: That while this is still a great effect, the demo does not use the same moves as is in the PDF. The demo actually looks as if no moves were used at all. I personally think it unethical to demo something without using the actual moves so the purchaser knows what he/she is actually buying.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Dave Forrest
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That's fair enough. So, full disclosure here and I will also change the text on the webpage to make people aware of this.

The control used in the video demo is not included in the 'Trap-ease' PDF. Basically, you must control the card to the top of the deck in order for this routine to work. The PDF details the Double Undercut in case purchasers do not already know of any method. The method in the demo is my own and to be honest, I didn't even think about it.

Sorry for any confusion. Believe me when I say that the last thing I am or want to be described as is 'unethical'.

Dave.
weepinwil
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What sold me was the impossibility of the control. How about teaching those of us who have purchased the PDF your handling so we can do it as we purchased it to be done? I do not know of a control so clean and the effect is just not quite as good in my opinion without it.

Everyone else is knowing that they are purchasing the effect not exactly as shown so there should be no problem there.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Dave Forrest
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Weepinwill,

The PDF says:

Upon the return of the card control it to the top of the deck. If you do not have a favorite method for this, you can use the Double Undercut as follows:

Then we have a short description of an acceptable control.

I simply used a control of my own in the video demo, my favourite method. I am not selling my card control I am selling a sandwich effect. The control has a million other uses and would take a second PDF of the same size to describe.

Once again I'm sorry for the confusion, but I am not going to defend myself any more on this one. I've apologised for the misunderstanding after being called unethical and you just don't seem to want to get over the fact that you feel as though you have been cheated. If you want your money back, e-mail me and I'll give you a full refund. Hopefully, getting the entire effect for free will make you feel better about it.

Dave.
zhuanan
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Hi Dave:


After the effect is performed, is the signed card, 2 jokers and deck immediately examinable by the specs? Thanks!
Dave Forrest
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Yes, but there is a clean up (which is very easy and quite innocent) that you do not see in the demo. A description on how to do this is included in the PDF.

Thanks,

Dave.
weepinwil
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Dave,

It is not what the PDF says but what the demo shows that is my concern. As for getting a refund? My honor as a magician says that I know the secret of the effect, and cannot give that back, so no refund is to be expected because my honor as a magician is more important than the price of the effect.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
James Adamson
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Dave,

No criticism intended, but here is a helpful suggestion.

Always produce a demo that shows everything that goes on in a effect as the spectator sees it without any editing from the start of the effect to the end of the effect, which includes any cleanup movements the spectator may see.

The ad does not say that the cards are examinable so therefore since no cleanup was shown no one such have any questions about that. Although I think all ads with any gimmick should state that you are not left clean. Glad to know you have the clean-up in the pdf.

I have posted several times about the quality of demos and I know that OTHER MAGICIANS definitely pick up any differences between what is shown and what happens in the real world environment.

I think you should reconsider "Selling" your control as a separate item or add additional cost to the existing product as your control is killer!

Great Effect!

James Adamson
Be remembered for performing what looks like MAGIC, not skill.
bekralik
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If he doesn't want to sell the control, he doesn't have to. He's indicated he doesn't want to, so let's drop it. He's selling the effect. I think we're all getting spoiled by demos and expecting too much from them.

What's wrong with a double-undercut or the familiar phrase "by your favourite control"? If the control works, then the effect is complete.
James Adamson
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I understand that he is selling the effect. That's fine.

I was just saying that his "Control" would be worth something and be a salable item if he wanted to.

As to the spoiled by demos, his "Control" looks like magic, ie., no apparent moves! Which is what magic should look like. From a pure magical viewpoint his "Control" is ten times better that having do a double-undercut as the double-undercut is added move just to make it easier for the performer. If his magic is to look real then all extra moves such be eliminated.

Remember "Be remembered for performing what looks like MAGIC, not what looks like skill."

Again I respect his wish not at this time to sell his "Control", but it is a valuable asset and in my opinion makes this effect much stronger.
Be remembered for performing what looks like MAGIC, not skill.
JosephKerr
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Wow ! Everything else aside that is a very clever control. Great work. I'd like to see the entire thing in action - Selection to tabling process.
Once again - very beautiful
"Challenge Your Reality"
weepinwil
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Hi everyone,

Please do not let tempers begin to flair and ruin this excellent discussion as you continue to comment. My only reason for answering a post here was to save Dave a lot of problem if others felt the same way I do and to give everyone a heads up on what they are buying. I am not angry at Dave and have the utmost respect for him. We have taken the discussion to PM and understand each others view point because of it and have reached a solution that we both agree upon.

I do not believe there was any ill intent or intended deception on Dave's part and he has conducted himself as a gentleman through this whole discussion, which I greatly appreciate.

I hope that many of you give this effect a try and hope that Dave does well with it.


Weeping Willie
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Cameron Francis
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Wow. Was out of town yesterday so I missed most of this discussion.

While I was slightly disappointed the control wasn't on the PDF, I knew from watching the demo that there was some kind of control used. Unless you use a dupe signature, there has to be a control.

I don't think there was any false advertising with the effect and am very pleased with my purchase. It's a killer sandwich effect. I do want to learn that particular control when David releases it, though Smile.
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
edh
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IMO, if a person demos an effect for the purpose of selling it. Then what is demo'd should be what is explained in the instructions. If you do not want to include a certain move of that is in a demo in your instructions then don't demo the video with this move. People are buying what they read and see in the advertisement. If I were buying this effect that is exactly what I would expect to be taught in the instructions. Not control it to the top buy another means.

I'm not saying this is false advertising but it could be viewed as deceptive. As Mr. Forrest said he had no intention of including this move in the instructions.
Magic is a vanishing art.
Cameron Francis
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Okay, but... There are many ways to control a card to the top of a deck. Just because someone uses a classic pass in a demo doesn't mean they have to teach the classic pass in the instructions. Not everyone is going to feel comfortable doing it. David actually takes the time to explain a double undercut in the instructions and I don't think he even had to do that. Just because he used a certain control, doesn't mean he has to explain it. As a magician, watching the demo, you know a control is used. Most of us know at least a couple of methods of controlling a card. I still don't know what the big deal is.
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
weepinwil
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Quote:
On 2005-12-05 23:21, cfrancis wrote:
Okay, but... There are many ways to control a card to the top of a deck. Just because someone uses a classic pass in a demo doesn't mean they have to teach the classic pass in the instructions. Not everyone is going to feel comfortable doing it. David actually takes the time to explain a double undercut in the instructions and I don't think he even had to do that. Just because he used a certain control, doesn't mean he has to explain it. As a magician, watching the demo, you know a control is used. Most of us know at least a couple of methods of controlling a card. I still don't know what the big deal is.


Tell you what, I have a great disappearance act wherein a person disappears before your eyes that I will sell you, you just have to use your favorite method of making a person disappear. $20.00 postage paid by pay Pal.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
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