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APC
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Quote:
On 2005-12-06 00:38, weepinwil wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-12-05 23:21, cfrancis wrote:
Okay, but... There are many ways to control a card to the top of a deck. Just because someone uses a classic pass in a demo doesn't mean they have to teach the classic pass in the instructions. Not everyone is going to feel comfortable doing it. David actually takes the time to explain a double undercut in the instructions and I don't think he even had to do that. Just because he used a certain control, doesn't mean he has to explain it. As a magician, watching the demo, you know a control is used. Most of us know at least a couple of methods of controlling a card. I still don't know what the big deal is.


Tell you what, I have a great disappearance act wherein a person disappears before your eyes that I will sell you, you just have to use your favorite method of making a person disappear. $20.00 postage paid by pay Pal.


Weepin, I think that was kind of uncalled for. It says by your favorite method but it explains one as well. It is PART of the routine, not the whole routine, why would it be focused on just that? It does explain, but you use your imagination, it is not someone saying, here is the effect with NO instructions, figure it out. just IMHO...i do not own this, however am going to purchase it soon
edh
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Here is my point. The demo is used as a selling point. So is the text in the description of the effect. That being said. What I expect to get is what is being demonstrated as to how this effect is going to look, also the description of it. This is not what is in the instructions. If video tape a demo of this effect using a dbl Undercut. Then view them both side by side and tell me which do you think is much stronger visually? And which would you buy?

Lets say I knew how to do a dbl undercut but not the control that is shown on the demo. I like the way this control makes this effect look. I buy it so I can learn how to do this effect using this control. I view the video and it tells me to use whatever control I am comfortable with. Then goes on to teach me the double undercut. What a disappointment that would be.

I don't think Mr. Forrest was trying to be disingenious. I just think that he could have put a little more thought into what was going to be advertised and what was going to be sold.
Magic is a vanishing art.
weepinwil
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[/quote]

Weepin, I think that was kind of uncalled for. It says by your favorite method but it explains one as well. It is PART of the routine, not the whole routine, why would it be focused on just that? It does explain, but you use your imagination, it is not someone saying, here is the effect with NO instructions, figure it out. just IMHO...i do not own this, however am going to purchase it soon
[/quote]

Whether uncalled for or not, it was not meant to be mean spirited nor offensive but sarcastic humor that illustrates my point. (Sarcasm kind of grows on me sometimes like fungus on trees). What if I did a video showing a person disappearing before your eyes and you were told when you received the instructions to use your favorite method of making the person disappear? I bet you would not be so happy.

I had no contention with the effect, only that the video did not accurately demonstrate it and I was very disappointed that I could not perform it as shown. When I go to a magic shop I expect to be able to perform the effect just as it is shown me, not some other way that is less impressive. I think that edh is also correct in his point (since it agrees with mine).

I hope you do buy it soon. It is a great effect and I think everyone who does card magic should try it, now that you are knowing what you are getting for your money.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Daegs
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Wow I just read this thread and it made my jaw DROP.

I can't believe anyone in this thread is actually serious about what they are posting, this is like right out of some Magic Soap Opera drama....

3 Important thoughts:

1: The control isn't original or that hard to figure out... especially when you get to start the video with the work already on the table(not to knock to Dave but to chastise those giving you beef about the control). Applications of this type of move to a control have been published for many many years..... It is a fantastic control, but if you do magic with cards(more than a beginner) and it fooled you, I suggest you read more books on card magic....

2: He is *clearly* selling instructions for making a gimmicked card to make a back appear anytime you want and then a method for switching out that card. CLEARLY. The description mentions NOTHING about a control and you shouldn't be expecting anything.

3: The card starts out signed, do you expect him to detail exactly how you should have the card picked? Or how you should ring in the gaff? etc? We are all adults and HOPEFULLY magicians, and when buying an effect we should look at it with magician's eyes. it is obvious that he is selling the gimmick, and how to use that gimmick, NOT card controls or passes or cleanups or audience management, etc.

I'll admit that Dave shouldn't be putting "pet" controls on demo video unless he intends to tip the work, but is it really that big of a deal to cause all this whining?

If you want to talk controls then buy a book or DVD with controls on it or wait until Dave releases his work on this control, but from the description alone you can tell the handling most likely wouldn't include the control, if it was really that big of a deal why didn't you confirm he tipped the control before buying?


And your analogy is completely faulty, how about if someone sold a manuscript detailing the person vanish, yet you would be screaming they don't explain how to get a spectator on stage or explain how to get them offstage when the effect is over?

I think it is obvious anytime you see an effect like Trap-Ease, Hole-sensation, matchbook, or any one of the other BILLION card tricks(it just occurred to me that the single card double back gimmicks are the "fad" of today) that detail a custom gimmick + a switch with the card on top of the deck, that you are buying the gimmick, not the control to the top or cleanup after the effect is over(palming to pocket, ditching in card case, etc).

I think Dave is getting way over bashed on this very unfairly....

-daegs
PS sorry for being grumpy but I hate the holidays....
zhuanan
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Hi Guys:


I would like to voice out my 2 cents here...

I think first of all, when a demo is shown, interested people, at first sight, would expect that the magic effect taught in the instruction will be the same as the demo, because the demo is suppose to show what will be shown if the magician were to perform the effect

Depending on how you view it, some may view that the selling points of "Trap Ease" is:

a) The ability to trap the signed card between the jokers; or
b) The ability to control the card to the top without seemingly doing so; or
c) Mixture of both

Thus, if you know what that control is, then you would not be concerned if the instruction includes the control or not, simply because you know how the control is accomplished.

Nonetheless, if you do not know what the control is, then, just like me, you would be amazed as to how the card can be controlled to the top without apparent effort, before it is then trapped between the jokers.

The truth, I think, is we should expect to receive a magic effect in which we will
be taught how the effect can be accomplished like what it is being conveyed by the demo.

I do understand that it would be good that we read up the essential books/ DVD on controls before we move on the purchase individual effects. However, due to varying reasons (eg. costs), some people would like to start of by buying individual tricks. And here, they are, just like me, amazed by "Trap Ease".

Lets imagine this situation:

I am now selling my version of triumph. I pose a demo.

The demo shows me performing a 100% invisible pass (my pet control) to bring the card to the top, before shuffling the cards face up and face down, and then proceed to show all cards face down except for the spectator's selected card.

For seasoned magician, I believe the pass is no big deal.

For amateurs, if they come to know that I controlled the card to the top with no apparent effort, they would be interested to know how it is achieved because in their mind, they may only know that card controls revolve around out-jogging the card and then control the card subsequently.

In short, my point is, before we pose a demo, we need to ponder - What expectation will be formed in the viewers mind when they watch the demo?

For seasoned magician, my pet control - 100% invisible pass may not be such a big deal for them. Thus, if I do not include the 100% invisible pass in the instruction, they would not be disappointed because they know how it is done.

But what about the amateurs, the total beginners, the magic hobbyist who may not know the control, who are amazed by my 100% invisible pass and who, because my demo shows the control, which induce them to believe that the 100% invisible pass will be taught to them??? Have we taken into account of them??? Have we thought of their feelings?

If I insist to them that my pet control is not for sale, and that they could still perform my version of triumph using double undercut, then:

a) The effect, as perceived from their eyes, may be weaken - because they may prefer to control the card to the top using lesser motion; and

b) They may perceive that I am deceiving them because I only teach 90% of the demo. The balance 10% (100% invisible pass) which is expected by them because it is shown in the demo is not taught by me.

Guys...I know that there are two camps here....

Nonetheless, be it you know the control or not, as long as you put yourself in the other camp's shoes, you will know how the other side feels...and you would understand why one side is disappointed, and the other side does not care about Dave not releasing the control....

Ultimately, I feel that, if you were a seller, it would be good that we take into account of the expectation that can be formed by viewers...viewers of different experience will have different perception...but most important of all, as a seller, have we done the necessary to satisfy our customers?

If some customers are not satisfied, perhaps it is an indication that we have not done enough...do bear in mind that our customer consists of seasoned magician, amateurs and magic hobbyist...and we need to take into account of that when we present our demo...to ensure that our customers feel that we are not holding back anything, which can impair the impact of the effect...
Cameron Francis
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Here's the thing, I don't think weepinwil's analogy about buying vanishing spectator effect works because what I bought from David was a sandwich effect. And I got a sandwich effect. The control is secondary. Besides, what's amazing to the spectator about the effect is, "How the heck did my card get between those two Jokers". Not, "How the heck did my card get to the top of the deck?"

Now if David had been marketing a new and improved ambitious card routine, then the control issue might be a bit more valid.
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
weepinwil
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Quote:
On 2005-12-03 08:21, Dave Forrest wrote:
Cameron,

I e-mailed you about the control in the demo.

Dave.


Seems like Willie wasn't the only one confused.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
James Adamson
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On 2005-12-07 11:54, cfrancis wrote:
"what I bought was a sandwich effect. And I got a sandwich effect." ---True

Besides, what's amazing to the spectator about the effect is, "How the heck did my card get between those two Jokers". Not, "How the heck did my card get to the top of the deck?" -----True

"The control is secondary." ----- Untrue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The control is an integral part of the effect to the performer.-----True

The performer must use some control.------True

Does a double-under cut work?--------True

Does the control that is shown on the video work?-----True

Does the double-undercut look as magical as the shown control?------NO or Untrue

Shouldn't a magician use the control that looks more natural and more magical?----True

Thus the control is not secondary. Dave in my opinion should remake the video on the site. Problem solved.

Do we not as magicians always look for better and new ways to accomplish a effect so that it looks more magical? Yes, we do. I know I have changed handlings from lectures, books and videos. I think we all have.

Selling a effect is everything from start to finish, unless it was maybe a ulility piece, which this is not. It is for a sandwich effect, but without a control of some sort the effect can not be done. The control is Part of the effect, not secondary.

zhuanan, nice post.

James Adamson
Be remembered for performing what looks like MAGIC, not skill.
APC
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Quote:
On 2005-12-07 11:54, cfrancis wrote:
Here's the thing, I don't think weepinwil's analogy about buying vanishing spectator effect works because what I bought from David was a sandwich effect. And I got a sandwich effect. The control is secondary. Besides, what's amazing to the spectator about the effect is, "How the heck did my card get between those two Jokers". Not, "How the heck did my card get to the top of the deck?"

Now if David had been marketing a new and improved ambitious card routine, then the control issue might be a bit more valid.


That is what I was saying in my post, well said.
Nikodemus
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Hi, somebody suggested that all demo vids should show the whole trick, including clean-ups etc. Unfortunately that is often impossible without exposing the secret. The problem is that you can watch a vid as many times as you want, unlike a live performance. A good example of this is the Blizzard demo vid. No way could they show the move on the demo.
Claudio
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The control in the demo is nothing original - though possibly Dave added some personal touches.

However I agree that if a demo is performed with a particular control, the demo'ed control should be explained in the instructions, as well as at least one more basic control ( such as double undercut ) to reach the widest possible technical audience.

As far as I am concerned the demo is an ad that tells you what package you're buying. If the control is not part of it, either show the one described in the instructions, or put a warning on the ad.

Another thing I did not appreciate watching the video was the selection lying on the table. Obviously showing the selection procedure and the tabling would have tipped magicians, but commercial interests should not overwhelm any other consideration.

In any case, because I perform surrounded, I would be better off sticking to a less angly control than the one demo'ed.

In all fairness, I was fooled by the trick because the gimmick really fried me. So, though I will not buy this trick (I already perform too many sandwich effects), if I were to buy another one, this one would be on the top of my list.
Cameron Francis
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I feel like the effect itself, the actual sandwiching of the card and the reveal, have been overshadowed by this control issue. This is a wonderful revelation. David has done a great job, as usual.
NUMBERED - A killer predicted card at any number out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/numbered.html
Review King
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Nice control. If you can tenkai palm you'll be able to do it.

If I were doing this effect, I would leave the 'signed" card sticking out of the deck and simultaneously push the card in as the card appeared between the two jokers. It’s much more magical that way.

Anyone doing this effect?

Chris
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
ixnay66
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Looks like this thread is all about the control now but I just wanted to say the effect looks great. David Forrest is one clever fellow and I'm always pleased by his effects. Thanks for sharing with the community Dave!
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