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Amazing Kenno New user Kenno 60 Posts |
My presentation for matrix depends on the group....I try to find a common denominator such as ...a family gathering, a gathering of business partners, a gathering of team members... the cards represent an office (a house, etc) and each coin a member of the meeting that arrives one by one to the meeting until the room gets too full, or the meeting ends, and you get Reverse Matrix..everyone returns to their office....oby verlaying a Making Money theme, its easy to offer the coins as representative of business folks having meetings, etc. Or I close with Reverse Matrix by announcing that "now with Email, no one ever leaves his office to make money" and the coins are back under each card.
The Amazing Kenno
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e-man Special user HILTON HEAD,SC 880 Posts |
This topic should be discussed in private at your next magic assembly.
Or magic "The Gathering" (Get-IT)
我被烹调
ERIC HELVENSTON |
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Dean A Regular user 114 Posts |
There is a good reason why coins SHOULD be used above any other object in classical routines of magic that have been CONSTRUCTED with them in mind from the outset..Pheeew.
Money (currency) is extremely romantic. Tricks with money are similarily as appealing to the audience. Coins are pretty but at the same time not out of context in relation to magic (as the spectator or, anyone else for that matter, views magic) Coins are instantly associated as objects one might carry in his or her pocket...Buttons, bottle tops, sugar lumps are not. Such random objects are also a little boring. As are some of the stories one might inflict on a magic routine for the sake of acceptance. Something like a poker chip has potential but I gotta say there is logic and a certain degree of modern nostalgia in using 'coins' in coin magic. I mean let's face it......Why not hey? On the flipside. If one could relate the premis of the objects joining more suitably to a diferent object then that may be another story. on the reverse of the flipside this brings me back to my (and others) original idea that there does not need to be a premis with this effect at all...or any other magic trick for that matter. I'd much rather perform The Matrix effect with coins and just let it speak for itself than with pieces of fudge on a mini picnic rug to tell the story of old uncle fredrick, the 'alfresco' fudge theif................................for example. I do this trick ALL!!! the time and you soooo don't need to relate it to anything other than........well you get the idea. D |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Hey Dean,
I'd like to hear the fudge thief story- just the story- I wouldn't ask you to drag the coins into it. I agree with your post BIGTIME. Whatever works for the individual, for sure. And why not use coins for a COIN trick, huh? I agree. |
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
Here, here.
The construction of whimsical storylines, IMO very often crosses the border to the land of trite things. Just because you CAN construct a cute story with the props doesn't mean you should. People think just because you personify the props or create some inane story around the meaning for the gathering of the coins (and their backfire etc.), then suddenly people will be interested in seeing your magic. If you need to employ such tactics to get people to watch your magic, then that's fine, but a good storyline does not a piece of magic make. I would like to think that the magic is powerful enough to be presented by itself and that most efforts spent on the "justification" of why the coins are jumping from place to place would be better spent creating a routine which is more natural with less funny moves. I accept that others don't share my view, but my point is that creating a cute story for the assembly is really only doing half the job. If you are going to create a storyline for the coins and the cards, then it really doesn't make sense to use cards and coins anymore. Think of Roth's Stonhenge Coin Assembly. He doesn't spiral off into some semi-plausible and intrinsically bland storyline where the coins are representing cotton seeds and the cards are storage bins, with the close-up mat representing the soil and invisible cotton pickers creating the invisible transits etc. In his great routine, he changes the props so that no long-winded silly explanation is needed. Furthermore, his routine is addressing a genuine mystery that people would actually talk about in a non-magical setting (not really a mystery in actual fact, but still mysterious to those who don't attribute ancient races with the respect they deserve) rather than concocting some bizarre storyline that would probably have people backing away slowly whilst maintaining eye contact if you just injected the patter itself into a conversation. In addition, Roth's climax for the routine suddenly answers the perhaps unasked question "why not use rocks instead of coins?".
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-17 08:48, Dean A wrote: Al's trick was constructed using quarters and cards. No question there. He's stated his thinking. Gonna lose the handkerchief from the original? Wow, that's unthinkable! Or is it? Ross Bertram and others had started cross breeding chink-a-chink from Sachs book Sleight of Hand and other tricks a generation before Al's routine. Things change. Sometimes for the better. BUT what about the assembly trick? Hmmm... have to go way back for that one. Try the write up from Ancient Rome of the clever conjurer and his trick with pebbles and bowls. More recently, look for a trick with tiny figurines and bowls. From that and chink-a-chink it's pretty obvious that the trick has its roots in magic with other objects. Why coins then? Most simply because folks tend to have the props onhand, their pocket change. A good idea for the impromptu performer. When doing a paid show, one is expected to bring things especially for the performance. Props are fine. Use whatever serves your act. I hope folks understand that buttons, medals... anything of suitable size is just fine for the trick and its only as a lowest common denominator that we discuss tricks as using playing cards, coins or billiards as we could as well be using calling cards, washers and eggs. That's my position on the matter. You get to have your own. If I'm at the office and do Al's trick using Al's method but using four paperclips covered by four postit pads, it's still Al's trick. Or can I publish my version as 'inspired by' and not tip my use of a tiny magnet under my bandaid that saves me lots of trouble? <<<==== Joke folks ( I had it implanted )
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dean A Regular user 114 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-17 18:23, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Why coins then? Most simply because folks tend to have the props onhand, their pocket change. Hi Jonathan I also said something like this in MY post too and yet you didn't bother to quote me on That. Instead you posted like YOU were the first person to bring the idea to the discussion and just focused on what you considered to be wrong with my post even though there were clearly elements of my post that you agreed with. Why was that? D |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
This if for Dean, who asked me about what I posted earlier. And also for all of us who simply want to offer audiences the best tricks when we perform.
* For Dean, Where to start... since you posted your request for clarification to the public thread as opposed to a PM, I guess you wish to be addressed in public. Okay, here you go, and sorry you get this before I've had my first cup of coffee. Dean, first off I had no intention of belittling your post by ignoring its content. I am sorry if my post gave the impression I had ignored your discussion above. I got the impression that you were going back and forth over some ideas and yet, for me at least, did not nail down some premises used in your discussion. Was your point about how tricks are designed? How they are performed? How they are written up for publication? * rest for everyone Quote:
On 2005-12-17 08:48, Dean A wrote: The premise in the first section (above) is something I find worth of challenging. Was the trick invented using coins? Was it intended to be performed using coins by its inventor? Pulling this knot apart takes a little work. Presuming such a thing to be true presumes a few things including the idea that coins were always the way they were in Bobo's time where half dollars were common and silver dollars were in circulation. Did Yank Ho do his trick using coins when he did it in his native China? Did Han Ping Chien use coins from his homeland or just use what he had onhand here? Let's say someone has a great trick and presentation and want to publish. In this case let's also say that their routine uses some very strange and impressive looking props and the presentation centers around admiring the props. They take it a publisher and the publisher informs then that most magicians are not going to go to the expense of finding those props, and that the base trick can be treated as something separate from the presentation. How to write the thing up? Instead of using giant pearls, buttons from the Rajah's jacket, spells written upon parchment from ancient Egypt and length of gold braid from the curtains at Louis XI V's throne room, the trick is published without the story, and the reader is advised to use small billiard balls or ball bearings, half dollars, a few playing cards and a length of magician's rope. Far less costly and the trick still looks magical. That can be sold to others. Mostly a business decision there. Most of us can't afford Germain's Rose Bush trick, but a rose to silk is within our means. It is unlikely that anyone here would be the first person on the planet to understand that when one is performing apparently impromptu magic, one is well advised to use props which one might be presumed to be readily on-hand. Now let's get to the performance component. We can treat tricks a little bit abstractly as procedures we do and results that appear for the audience. Paper clips and post-its for Al's Matrix makes good sense at an office desktop. Let's look at how tricks are invented or designed. Few people go out of their way to make a trick work from scratch or adapt an existing magic trick to work with coins. David Roth is one of those few people who've done things like "Linking Coins" and "Wilcoin", adapting a non-coin plot using large rings or playing cards so he could use coins. Okay, I've challenged that "SHOULD" from Dean's post and also the premise that routines published as using coins were actually invented using coins. No disrespect intended. As a bit of humor and to offer an example that is absolutely certain of a trick that does not fit the premise..., it might help folks to know that the "three fly" trick was first explored using a small set of billiards and one of the things that inspired it involved candles. Now you know for sure that at least one "classic" coin trick was performed using other props. If this sort of thing is true for at least one trick, then it seems reasonable to treat that "SHOULD" as dependent upon a context. I hold that the exact nature of that context is pretty much up to the performer. Peace, love and time for that first cup of coffee.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
Dean I enjoyed your post and just want to say, the answer to your question is hidden in my post of December 13. Enjoy my friend. (He's Back)
Frank Tougas (Q)
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Dean A Regular user 114 Posts |
Hi Frank
I read your previous post and I agree that there HAS been a certain degree of 'back pedalling'in this discussion. For that reason I'm going to jump off mtself now, along with yourself, John Delancy, the cast of Star Treck and whoever else might see fit to joining us. It has been a very interesting topic though To Jonathan I think I managed to make my own feeling toward the storylining of matrix quite clear without rattling too many cages or resorting to too many diversions. I also think that my points are valid and the theory seems to have been accepted by some of the people. I also disagree that I did not manage to 'nail any ideas down', as you put it. Dean Atkinson |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-19 06:25, Dean A wrote: This sort of meta-commentary, distraction and backpedaling suggests a cute bit for a coin assembly phase. Going from the social presentation posted earlier, there will be those who sit at the table, distract, wheedle, backpedal and make personal comments, and so disrupt a meeting... a pretty good thing to describe an assembly backfire phase. Sometimes even those who offer nothing directly useful can serve the needs of a story. Thanks guys.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Most welcome. Absolutely.
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-19 06:25, Dean A wrote: I think Jon T. offer quite a bit of his own thinking in all his posts without taking ideas or ignoring them from anyone.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Dean A Regular user 114 Posts |
I know he did. what's your point? the post you just quoted was to assure Jonathan that I did indeed consider that I had managed to 'Nail down some ideas' after he had criticised me for not doing so. It was not a post made to suggest that his own ideas were not worthy. I, like MANY, am convinced that they are. I am sure that Jonathan is QUITE confident that his ideas of the past and present are more than 'WORTHY' and I am also sure he is aware that I am not trying to be aggresive towards him. Even if I WAS, I'm not sure he would care. He is a New Yorker after all and I wish him a very merry holiday.
Oops I came back. Dean Atkinson |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Okay folks, we have a transit strike in NYC to let's add car pooling to the list of options for presentation hooks.
That done, maybe we can also put a holiday icon under one card and let the other three coins join in for some festivities? Let's leave off bickering or personal stuff till after the new years. Or perhaps take any personal commentary out to the private messages so the rest of the readers can enjoy a holiday season pleasant read. Peace.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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info2victor Veteran user 337 Posts |
Hm... an intersting topic... somehow it relates to why one is performing that routine. If one doesn't take magic into account, it'll make no sense to tear a card and restore it, or cut a lady in half and put the 2 pieces back in 1 piece.
I agree that some magic you just don't need to say a word. I once saw David Blaine did a Chink-A-Chink (well... similar to Martix) with leafs to some native tribes, he didn't say a word and they are amazed. It's that direct and simple. However, it's also nice if you can relate some stories or patters to some routines. For example, there was a post talking about how to present the Hopping Halves with a nice story instead of saying "look I put the copper in my pants". Talking about Matrix / C-A-C routines, I suddenly think of an idea, never tested it but I believe it may work, and it should work better with C-A-C type of effect: --------------- Use a copper as the one at the corner where the coins assemble. The other 3 corners use Kennedy. Say that it's a truth that women attracts men, and it happens to coins as well. Then you rotate the Kennedys so that all are looking at the lady on the copper. After that do the routine... As an afterthought, perhaps one can find out that the lady turns out to be a man (!)... there you go with an instant back-fire. ;-)
It only takes a minute to learn how it is done, but takes a lifetime to learn how to do it.
You've got a coin? |
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Cpontz Special user Daupin PA 553 Posts |
Here are a couple of ideas for doing Matrix during the Holiday Season:
1. Family coming home to visit for the Holidays. However, they have to use frequent flyer miles and can only get night flights so you have to cover the coins to simulate the darkness of night. You could also say they picked up a ride with Santa in his sleigh and Santa always comes in the night. 2. The three Wise Men traveling to see the baby Jesus. They can only travel at night so they can see the star. It would be really cool if you could figure out a way to levitate a light to show the star. I thought about a DeLite, but that would be only a temporary light and you would have to ditch it before doing the routine. 3. Charles Dicken's Christmas Carol. Scrooge is "visited" by the ghosts of Christmas future, Christmas past and Christmas present. Of course the ghosts visit him in the dead of the night. When all the coins collect around Scrooge, he is a changed man and gives the money away. PS: I agree with Jonathan. Lets try to keep all the bickering or negative comments out of this post. Use PM's if you have to, but lets try to exhange ideas and postive comments in a way to help other magicans think about their presentations and improve the magic. Merry Christmas!! Craig |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-20 06:13, Jonathan Townsend wrote: My sister is in Manhatten and got to work just fine. Everyone is walking and not letting it bother them. Of course if your trip isn't walkanle, then you have a problem. Holiday icon? You mean Christmas symbol? lol. I'm making it a point to wish everyone a Merry Christmas this year. And will not support "hiliday" trees!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
How about a Festivus Pole and An Airing of Grievences?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I kind of like it when the audience gets to "aha" the story behind the trick. The script is there, just not told to them or shown directly.
Is Festivus a real/living holiday? Gotta look that up and compare it to Yule.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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