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Jim Salabim Loyal user Skien, Norway 240 Posts |
Hi, I wonder if anyone has performed David Roth's Spellbound trick, woth Goshman pinch instead of the "other" pinch he's using?
I'd like to get some feedback on this. Jim
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BWind Loyal user Honolulu, Hawaii 260 Posts |
Jim,
I perform some of Roth's moves without the "pinch"; although the move is effective for David it just does not work for me. Call it self-conscious magician's guilt. I suppose you could use the Tenkai Pinch, but there are still angles to watch. I believe that this is one effect David performs on his video standing with the subject looking down on his hands; The Tenkai for me only feels right performing Sun & Moon; BWind |
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phedonbilek Special user Greece, Cameroon, France 883 Posts |
I always use the Tenkai pinch when performing spellbound... The Deep Back Clip is a sleight I simply couldn't do...
Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
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snowboard New user China Shenzhen 86 Posts |
The Back Clip looks more natural than Tenkai pinch.
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Jim Salabim Loyal user Skien, Norway 240 Posts |
Great. I find that the Deep Back Clip doesn't suite me either. I'm more confortable with the Tenkai pinch.
Thanks!
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Backdoor Regular user Bismark, ND 117 Posts |
I like what Mr. Roth does with this move, but it can be sorta sticky for me as my fingers seem to want to be independent sometimes. While it can be done with TP as well, I agree with snowboard here that the BC looks more natural and better within the sequence. The TP can be an effective substitute though as the whole routine speeds by pretty fast. -bd
-Only The Shadow Knows...Y'know?
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jolyonjenkins Inner circle United Kingdom 1181 Posts |
You can see it perfectly clearly on the Roth DVD, although long-suffering Monica appears not to notice.
Jolyon Jenkins
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Guys, I’m seriously…
If you can't hold a coin in deep back clip you need to work on that, not substitute an inferior method, like the Tenkai pinch. David Roth knows more about constructing coin magic than most of us ever will, and he certainly has mastered both the Tenkai pinch and the deep back clip. You can be sure that if he’s used one over the other it’s the right choice. The DBC and the Tenkai pinch are not interchangeable. They were create for, and suitable for different uses. If you can squeeze your pinky and ring finger together well enough to hold a coin, you should be able to squeeze your second and third fingers together well enough to hold a coin. It’s just about working at it until you can do it. |
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bigchuck Veteran user Nothing clever has ever been said in my 400 Posts |
I agree with WsDuncan, the deep backclip IS the better choice here because it cuts off the bad angles in this context better than the tenkai does, PLUS you want to display the coin openly; I mean the entire premise is showing ONE coin at a time.
Tenkai's angles are naturally sensitive -- moreso when you want to display 'the' coin in the open palm. Of course, using smaller coins might work, but half sized coins and up make things hairier and I like things with as little hair as possible.
"The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact
mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. - Frank Zappa" |
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phedonbilek Special user Greece, Cameroon, France 883 Posts |
Well... I don't agree. At all... When I have the coin in TP, you wouldn't be able to tell me whether it is in TP or in DBC, unless you could see through my hand. Second, angle are sensitive when you go underhanded, be it in TP or DBC... You don't perform Spellbound for large audiences, do you?
And third: DBC works very good for Roth. FOR ROTH. For Phedon Bilek -myself-, TP works better. And you know why? Because Phedon is no Roth; he has a different personality, different hands, a different style... Of course, he also has less talent, but that's a different story Oh yes, fourth: I don't know upon what you base yourself to declare that using the TP is an... 'inferior' method... My two -euro- cents. Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
All for concise languge here, though let's use "TP" for the older Thumb concealment, okay?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-18 01:57, phedonbilek wrote: If your abilities with the Tenkai Pinch are that remarkable then you are to be congratulated. I have never NOT seen a “tell” when someone uses the Tenkai Pinch, no matter how well they do it. That’s because it requires an unnatural use of the muscles of the hand to control the coin when held in that unnatural position. People who have mastered the Tenkai clip understand that things must be constructed so that the palm up displays are brief and give the impression of an empty and flat hand. This is not to say that the Tenkai Clip won’t fool someone who doesn’t know about back of the hand concealments… Quote:
And third: DBC works very good for Roth. FOR ROTH. For Phedon Bilek -myself-, TP works better. And you know why? Because Phedon is no Roth; he has a different personality, different hands, a different style... None of that should make any difference. Deep Back Clip isn’t any harder to DO than Tenkai Pinch. It might be harder to learn (though I find that hard to imagine) for some, but once you can hold a coin there, it’s actually easier than Tenkai Pinch because you don’t need to hold so tightly to control the coin and that allows your hand to look more relaxed and casual because it is more relaxed. Quote:
Oh yes, fourth: I don't know upon what you base yourself to declare that using the TP is an... 'inferior' method... Not sure if you mean what you wrote here. It seems you are saying; “What qualifies you to make such an analysis?” or “Who do you think you are?”. To that I can only answer that I’ve been using both methods for a quarter of a century and have some small understanding of the physics of muscles, and how they work. If my argument, which is fact based, and not centered on things I can and cannot do, does not convince you then I am sorry, because you will continue to what works for you when a better method is within your reach, should you choose to work for it. The Tenkai Pinch is inferior, in this context, because when the coin changes the audience will naturally expect that you are hiding the other coin. Because of that the display must be as casual as possible, and in this context, the Tenkai pinch, which requires more muscular tension, is inferior to the Deep Back Clip. In a “coins across” routine, the Tenkai, which is easier to get into an out of with one hand, is often superior, but in those contexts the displays are different. My point is that, when you can do both, the Deep Back Clip is superior in this context, which is why Roth uses it in favor of the Tenkai pinch, and that if you haven’t mastered the Deep Back Clip too you should endeavor to do so. |
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phedonbilek Special user Greece, Cameroon, France 883 Posts |
OK OK... By no mean I intended to say 'what qualifies you'... I am sure you're a better magician than I am; moreover, I failed in clarifying one or two points. Getting into DBC isn't that hard , agreed. But the coin always sticks to my fingers and I cannot get it on my left hand the way Roth does in order to perform the flash change. The coin wouldn't fall, and I am obliged apply some strength, and that shows. With the TC (Tenkai clip), I do another visual change Sankey shows in his RCM DVD, which he calls if I remember correctly the "Pancake toss"; very visual, and causes people to .And last: my way of clipping the coin in TC is not exactly the way it is taught; the classic way of Tenkai clipping results in a hand that does not look natural at all (for me), since the pinky's tip is below the third finger (in order to be able to show the hand empty to an audience FACING us), and with the coin being tilted to a 45 degree-angle; now the way I do it is: pinky is perfectly parallel to the other fingers, so the hand looks AS GOOD AS if it was DBClipping. Drawbacks of this method: first you must have the specs on your right, forget the front audience. Second, the coin has no angle, making this method a bit more angle-sensitive when using larger coins.
That's why I can repeat what I said above: whether the coin is in TC or DBC, you would never know. Provided you're on my right of course, but that's never been an issue for me. Sorry if I did not express myself accurately sooner. Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-18 16:28, phedonbilek wrote:...agreed. But the coin always sticks to my fingers ... Wet/sticky hands here too, big time. I have to very careful doing the Vernon or thumb push moves into DBC. I wind up using Harvey Rosenthal's move when I have any concerns as that takes me into DBC with lots of grip instead of sliding. Closeup Folio #3.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Phedon,
Sounds like you're doing the Deep Back Clip with your pinky! Here are some tips: Wash and dry your hands before you practice as this will help to dry them out. As your body learns the pressures, angles and movements it will be easier to accomplish without this preparation. Use HEAVIER coins. Practice the Flash Change VERY SLOWLY, almost as if doing Mime. I'm convinced that if you can do the Tenkai as you do the Deep BAck Clip is also within your grasp. Jon's tips are also wonderful. |
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otter606 New user Scotland 89 Posts |
If you have long thin bony fingers then Tenkai pinch is much more effective,
for me when I do DBC there is almost always a small "flash". I have practiced DBC nearly every day while watching the news for about a year now, and have not found any improvement in the last few months, even with the advice in Dan Watkins CoinVanish volumes and the Paul Cummins Underhaned DVD. TP though really does conceal the coin very effectively. But I can see that DBC is superior in terms of angles and also for doing secret retrievals into CP. |
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snowboard New user China Shenzhen 86 Posts |
Let's talk the sleight use in Roth's spellbound.
I think the CP is a better choice. We can see how Roth does and how well it works. There is only two move to get into CP. When you dump the silver coin(looks as if) in your left hand,you get the front clip.the next what you do is just push it into CP. You do not need to turn your hand down close finger to get the TP. The method of getting CP is simple and clear. I think TP is harder sleight than CP. If you can do TP,why no try practising CP? In other hand,There are something can't be done by the TP. For example, Paul Cummins' Underhand Across. By the way, It's pretty hard. What I want to say is, Keep practising. |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Otter,
Roth's routine is contructed so that the edge of the DBC coin is covered by the other coin. Roth has (or at least used to have) the same issue you mention. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-19 05:46, snowboard wrote: Let's get to the bottom of your question. Is your concern the sleight used to get the coin into DBC? IE if you had a better way to get there, would you be okay? Or the change itself? Even thought the Floperino change works fine and from CP, the DBC Flash Change has its advantages.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Whewwwwww, glad to be outta that hole....Hiya doing JT? Merry Christmas to all. -MB
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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