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otter606 New user Scotland 89 Posts |
I've just realised how much better a ROV vanish is if the receiving hand is moving in the same direction as the putting hand. E.g., if you're moving it to raise it upwards to gesture , or to move it behind ones back/leg/ for a penetration type effect. Sorry I'm sure this might be obvious but I'd not seen it noted in my growing collection of instructional videos and it has completely revolutionized my ROV vanish. I try and assess my skill by playing "guess which hand" with my eagle eyed small son - he normally guesses correctly about 70-30 so I knew there was something imperfect about my technique but this has completely randomized his answers.
Sorry if this sounds too smug or triumphalist but I just wanted to share this tip for any people who are like me struggling to make these moves look completely deceptive rather than just slightly misleading . I think part of the reason is the greater motion covering the lesser motion of the putting hand's fingers but there's also something captivating about both coin and hand moving in the same direction which adds a sort of "retention of motion" kind of effect.. |
Cpontz Special user Daupin PA 553 Posts |
The ROV slight is a difficult one to master. However, when it is done right, I believe it is best if the hand receiving stays still. I have seen David Roth and Michael Rubenstein both teach this move and in their hands it is a thing of beauty. The retention of vision is perfect. I would think if your hand was moving, this vision retention would be lessened. Just my humble opinion.
Keep practicing. Mirror's and video taping your practice sessions really help. Good luck Craig |
Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Because of the ROV, the eyes tend to follow the movement of the coin.
Right hand, with coin, moves to the left hand, does ROV and relaxes as the left hand moves away (continuing left or moving up) as if holding the coin. The right hand relaxes. Yes. Structuring you body and hand movements so attention is drawn where you want it to be makes it better. |
Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
Part of the challenge in magic is finding what works best for you. Also having confidence in a move usually translates into a better performance. If this works well for you then all the theory in the world doesn't matter and I would say go with it.
Personally, I prefer to keep the left hand (receiving) still and withdraw the right hand after depositing the coin. You will get a better retention if you wiggle the coin a bit as you are placing it in the hand. Lighting is also important. Try to be in position so the ambient light will reflect off the coin toward the spectator's viewing position. |
Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Nobody's wrong here and both Craig and Larry's opinions are respected.
I just want to add that in my thinking there is more strength when the right hand moves to put AND the left hand moves on the take rather than just using a put. That type of movement was one of the first things I read and have stayed with it. It fits my style or lack of. |
mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
Personally I find when doing a standard palm up retention of vision, the recieving hand does stay dead. However, when doing a fingertip retention of vision...both hands move in unison towards each other. Once the coin has been supposedly placed in the hand...the RECIEVING hand should be the first hand that moves away! The hand stealing the coin should lay dead for a moment. Eyes will follow motion...so (at least for me) you should want the spectators looking at the recieving hand!
Mike |
KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Go watch people handle coins and money. Now is a great time at stores by cash registers. See what their hands do and pay attention to movement, direction, closing speed, etc. Then decide what looks natural and therefore effective.
I think there are some suprises out there. Kirk |
Malcolm Kavalsky Regular user 114 Posts |
If you believe that the coin is in your receiving hand, your body language will help to convince the spectators of this fact, wether or not you move it.
Al Schneider teaches this principle in most of his notes, he calls it "intention of reality". Even a simple vanish, can be extremely convincing, once this principle is acquired. Check it out at http://www.worldmagiccenter.com Couple it together with an ROV, and you will fool your son 100%. |
Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Otter has said,
Quote:
I try and assess my skill by playing "guess which hand" with my eagle eyed small son - he normally guesses correctly about 70-30 Since there is a 50% chance that his son will guess which hand, this is not the best way to evaluate the ROV. When used in an actual routine, even a simple one such as a a vanish and reproduction, it becomes stronger. |
otter606 New user Scotland 89 Posts |
Thanks for all the replies! I agree that this movement is only any good if it is part of a natural action, for example as you swivel to face some people on your LHS for example. If you're sitting down then maybe it's less good.
I should say that both hands are moving leftwards before coin is "transferred", the RH catches up the LH and "puts" the coin, the L/h continues moving leftwards and the R/h holds still. I like the Schneider vanish too (the CP and FP varieties) but prefer to use those as part of a longer effect where other actions contribute to the deception e.g., click passes. For a simple vanish /impossible reproduction the fact that you SEE the coin going into the hand must deceive the spectator more.. for example all this fuss about the Mickey Silver coin through head routine, it looks great but I think if he was doing a Schneider vanish it wouldn't look so good, or wouldn't bear repitition - without the visual conviction of the coin being transferred there is nothing to contradict the logical deduction of the spectator that the coin isn't really being transferred. Happy Christmas everyone! |
Backdoor Regular user Bismark, ND 117 Posts |
I've noticed that it can work well in all these ways and it's really your confidence that seals the deal...that and the fact that the spec's eyes follow the coin. The extra movement of the hands cause the eyes to try and track both movements, it causes a small confusion toward the same result. It looks really good "taking" the coin too....that is letting your empty left hand come over and take the coin from the from the holding right hand. It's a bit confusing to a spec as regularly that's not how the movement works, but it makes the same thing happen. The actual magic of the move is in the eyes of the spec...they follow the coin and leave it wherever they can't see it any longer. Their own logic of the matter helps the move work most of the time. A little practice with this and you can fool anyone pretty easily. But I like the movement otter speaks of here, as it also looks natural and feels pretty good too. Keep experimenting man.
-Only The Shadow Knows...Y'know?
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
If you believe that the coin is in your receiving hand, your body language will help to convince the spectators of this fact, wether or not you move it.
Very true...but a little added misdirection never hurts ! Mike |
JoeHohman Special user Erie 706 Posts |
All of the above posters are far more experienced than I am with a ROV, but I can't resist putting in my two cents.
For a few months now I have been putting together a short routing using just a single coin and a bandana. I have one little move in it that I really like -- my basic ROV vanish is the one I learned from reading Bobo, and it looks okay, but it is nothing special. My basic ROV vanish with the bandana or handkerchief draped over the left hand (I am right handed, so my left hand takes the coin in the folds of the bandana) looks 10 times more convincing, and I think the only reason is because there is more movement coming from the folds of the bandana. This is probably something that many other people have tried, and I just stumbled upon it; but I practice this in the mirror a lot (lots of stolen moments even at work, in the men's room -- don't tell my boss!), and I think it really looks authentic. If you haven't tried it, check it out. |
Rindfleisch Special user New Jersey 502 Posts |
Tips:
1. Before you start ask several people to hold the coin in the same manner as you would and ask them to place the coin into their other hand. Ask them to do this a few times and pay close attention to every aspect of what's going on. Pay special attention to what happens after the coin is placed into the receiving hand. Does the initial hand point? Does it freeze in one spot? You’ll probably find that after the coin is placed in the hand it will simply drop to its side, it may even swing slightly. This is what your ROV should look like. try to copy their actions. 2. Both hands should start face up, this way when the hand holding the coin turns over you'll get a nice flash of silver. 3. Receiving hand should stay dead. 4. Receiving hand should be slightly tilted toward the floor. 5. When the fingers start to close break at the wrist with an upward movement. 6. Make sure you feel the coin in the receiving hand first before 7. Place the coin in the hand near the thumb base but further to the left. As the fingers close push the thumb into the left. That will cause the fleshy part of the thumb base to pivot the coins right into the fingers. 8. After the vanish is accomplished don't try and rush to put it in cl*s*iC P*lm let it stay in fin**r *ip *est. 9. After the vanish if you gesture or touch the person with the hand that holds the coin it adds to the fairness. Joe
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Okami Regular user Germany 157 Posts |
Thanks for this one:
Quote:
On 2005-12-21 13:40, Rindfleisch wrote: I like it very much! |
Rindfleisch Special user New Jersey 502 Posts |
Oh btw I'm lefty, so heres the translation for righty:
7. Place the coin in the hand near the thumb base but further to the righ. As the fingers close push the thumb into the right. That will cause the fleshy part of the thumb base to pivot the coins right into the fingers.
check me out on facebook #MAGICTOTD
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