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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts 
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This is no joke I really want to know what Café members think or feel what a card shark is.
Is a card shark a card cheat that uses moves to advantage play? Is a card shark a magician that uses moves to look like they could advantage play but use them to entertain audiences? Or both? What makes a magician a card shark and what makes a cheat a card shark? What I am looking for is some kind of an outline or a level of skill to base this observation. Thanks...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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KidCrenshaw Special user USA 537 Posts
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I think a card shark is someone who has the skills to pay the bills.
I don't think a shark is the same as a cheat, but moreso an advantage player by their very nature of understanding the game, and familiarity with predicted outcomes. I think a magician is made into a cardshark by his audience. Interesting topic, Glenn.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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I am a Sharp and a you are a Flat. You play on Square and I am a Rounder.
See Sharps and Flats. Here: http://rickyjay.com/radio.html Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Reis O'Brien Inner circle Seattle, WA 2467 Posts
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From my limited point of view I have always viewed magicians who use gambling cheat themes in their magic to be nothing more than playing the part of the card shark (or sharp). Some of them may want us to think they're truly on the grift, with all the romatic notions that may include, but I doubt they could really get the money.
I have always thought of a card shark as somebody who gets the job done, undetected, through mechanics, advantage or device. In fact, the LAST guy you'll see doing a card trick is a true proffessional sharp! |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts
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The cheat who uses their skills and preys on other gamblers is a card shark. These sharks are out for the money.
I would say that player who is honest but wins consistantly might also be considered a card shark or card sharp. One who entertains with the same level of skill and similar methods as the cheat may be seen by spectators as a card shark/sharp. I don't think it's a matter of skill level as much as it is their goals. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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The earliest I see the term used was actually just sharp,
as in sharps and flats, sharps being the clever folk, and flats being the dull unsuspecting marks. Card got stuck onto sharper later to narrow the definition to someone who predominately cheats with cards, as opposed to dice or other games. Nowadays, among gambling inclined folk, cardshark means someone who is very good at playing without cheating, someone who is on top of their game , but cardsharp still signifies a mechanic, or cheat. They are used interchangeably sometimes, but the definitions I laid out are the standard. It was said.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Daegs Inner circle USA 4291 Posts
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Quote:
From my limited point of view I have always viewed magicians who use gambling cheat themes in their magic to be nothing more than playing the part of the card shark (or sharp). Some of them may want us to think they're truly on the grift, with all the romatic notions that may include, but I doubt they could really get the money. Interesting comment because this is general view magicians have.... that it would be difficult to "get the money" and that many could... this is only partially true. Generally(and I mean generally), magicians have much greater SKILL than card cheats but mearly lack the knowledge of how and when to apply it(and the morals and guts to actually do it). I point this out because a simple bubble peak or heel glimpse can EASILY get a ton of money and something well within most magicians skill level. My point is that while most magicians can't throw out a bunch of centers or riffle stacking to win each hand, they DEFINATLY can "get the money" by just applying a glimpse or peek throughout the night. |
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Reis O'Brien Inner circle Seattle, WA 2467 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-12-20 18:50, Daegs wrote: Great point, Daegs. I really wasn't looking at it that broadly. I guess I was caught up in thinking about those blabbermouth knucklebusters I see hanging around magic shops and trying to come off like their the next person that the ghost of Vernon will come searching for. These guys don't really have the skills they would need to get it done. They know a few stacked-deck gambling effects by Scarne and the basic handling of base dealing, but they'd probably spend more time getting shot at than actually getting the money. And for the record, I could very well be included in that list of ne'er-do-wells! However, I haven't the sand to even try and pull it off! And Tommy, thanks for the breakdown. That makes a lot of sense. |
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mxray Loyal user 276 Posts
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I think it is all relative to the person who is using the term:
I have heard people who are below average poker players use the term to describe someone who is ( while honest) a really good poker player. It is often said with absolutely no derrogation intended toward the skilled player at all, but simply to describe them as being a really good player. On the the other hand, I have heard honest skilled players use the term in reference to a crossroader or sleight of hand artist who mucks or marks cards, or uses some other dishonest form of advantage play. I even once heard a floorman use the term to describe someone whom he thought was counting cards. (He wasn't .) My 2 cents worth, MXRay |
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Chris Stolz Inner circle Mississauga, Ontario 1958 Posts
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In my opinion:
A card SHARP is someone who has the ability, or possesses the skills to cheat during a game of cards. This person is beyond that of your average magician or cheat in that they have a wide range of knowledge and can find a way to win no matter what the cirsumstances. This person could also be called a "Mechanic" and is a very rare breed. A card SHARK is a card cheat. Someone who cheats at cards for the money. They must obviously possess some skills to take the money but do not neccessarily have to be experts...just theives. The two can of course be meshed together which is where things get confusing. I know known a select few magicians in my time who one could certainly call a card sharp. These obviously were people who devoted their entire lives to learning everything they could about working with a deck. That being said, to the best of my knowledge they were not by any means sharks who were looking to bottom deal their way to the slammer. -Chris.
Chris Stolz
BLACK ART BOOK: Hiding In The Shadows. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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This made me laugh:
believe that I caught my hero, James lileks in a horrible misuse of the English language. He wrote this: Gnat has become quite the card shark. I fart in his general direction. What he MEANS is that his child is becoming a card SHARP, not "shark." It's a common mistake, but unforgivable in my humble opinion. A shark is a brainless fish with a big mouth and a voracious appetite. I like playing poker with people who display those attributes. A "card sharp," on the other hand, is a dangerous player in the game. This person knows the odds, pays attention to the cards, reads his opponents, NEVER gives away any hint of what he's holding and will make you wish were with a shark instead of him in a game when he demonstrates just how sharp he really is. He doesn't bite, but he'll cut your ass to shreds. It's CARD SHARP, not "card shark."
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Thanks for posting everyone and I feel that there is no right or wrong answer to the question. The reason I posted the question is that in the media - movies and TV it is often card shark and sharp.
The slang of today is different than it was in Erdnase time. The pass was called the shift but now it is often called the hop. To me the hop was not a pass or a shift but a different move used to hop the top part of the deck after the cut. It was not a full shift. Growing up in magic the term for a card cheat was a card shark. I remember Mickey McDoogle calling people that did magic with cards cardsters. And he was a card detective - whatever that was. I think that the card shark was a point of view that was from magic not the cheating world.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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In the poker world today a "Shark" is a good player and a "Fish" is bad player.
But they just say "Shark" or "Fish" when they mean that, they do not say Cardshark or Cardfish. I think most poker players today mean cheat if they say Cardshark or Cardsharp. If they just said Sharp that would mean cheat. That's just my opinion.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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What makes a person a card shark? From my point of view and the way that I feel about Erdnase I feel that they do not have to be a card cheat.
I would say Erdnase was a card shark or a card sharp. The reason is that he wrote the book that started it all for magic. It was the book that inspired Vernon, Miller, and countless others. The book expert at the card table represented both magic and the world of advantage playing or cheating. He could have been a cheat he could have been a magician. He could have been both or just a guy with a heavy interest in both subjects that worked for the railroad. At this time no one knows. But his skill with a deck is sure because he wrote the book and know one knows if he made a living doing card cheating or magic. But in the books it is written that he played cards. And the magic section is filled with bits of business you get the feeling that he did do magic. Or those bits of business would not be written up the way that they were. I feel that anyone doing it and not necessarily writing or publishing a book or other media - or out there cheating - but being skilled with cards and the subject matter would fit the mold. I don't consider Walter Scott a professional cheat. But he was one that did it as a side line and was a music teacher and a performer by trade. Just some thoughts to a fun subject.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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mattisdx Inner circle 1614 Posts
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Brian Tudor
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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Try this in your word processor : Type the word cardsharp and cardshark.
Your word processor will tell you that cardshark is a spelling mistake. Mine does anyway. You are never going to be wrong to use the word Cardsharp but many word experts regard Cardshark as wrong, so why use it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7042 Posts
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I suspect, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Card Shark sounds like it was probably derived from people mis-hearing Card Sharp. Not hard to do. Then once the two terms became common vernacular, people started assigning different meanings to both.
Possible...
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - REHAB REDUX - The Real World T&R Out Now! https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/20382
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Tommy I use it because of theater. Ask a person what a card sharp is? Ask a person what a card shark is? There is a theater side to selling this kind of thing to markets that will buy it as a show.
I think outside of magic more people relate card shark to cheating at the card table. And that is who is buying this as an entertainment. For me the name card shark is a marketing choice.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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To me it makes no difference. Some of the confusion may come from other words that sound similar. Especially if they have a similar connotation. Like "pool shark". Pool Shark is a common term for a pool hustler. You rarely ever hear of a pool hustler refered to as a "pool sharp".
One definition of shark is a ruthless person, or a person who victimizes others. One definition of sharp is a very keen or astute person. There really is no definition of sharp that would indicate, advantage, ruthlessness or the like. Maybe it's back to that "advantage play" VS "cheating" thing. A sharp is a keen or astute player. A shark could be a cheat. But as Tommy said fish and shark are used differently in different situations, as a gauge of a players skill. I think they are interchangable in the minds of 99% percent of people who really don't care about it that much. With a possible edge to "card shark". I just took a very informal, unscientific poll of 5 people. Everyone said they always thought it was "card shark". Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Cool Vandy I do think Pool Shark has a lot to do with the public calling a card cheat a card shark. The I feel that pool and card games may sort of go hand and hand. Thanks Vandy.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Posted: Dec 20, 2005 11:07 pm 
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