I like magic and mentalism (actually, for me, I consider mentalism a form of magic, but I know others don't agree). And I mean I enjoy learning about magic/mentalism, and practising it. I rarely perform. Sometimes I do impromtu for one or two people.

But I did do a performance for an office Christmas party, and I got the sense that- as is my preconceived notion- a large percentage of adults are reflexively dismissive of "magic". This was certainly happening to me while I was doing any "magic" tricks for them. At every table there was at least of couple of weisenheimers (how the heck to spell that word?) trying to throw sand it the gears (though, to be fair, I'm sure THEY thought they were funny).

On the other hand, basically everyone seem to get tongue-tied when it's a "mentalism" type trick (ID and Mental Yarn are the ones I did).

So, I wonder, is this just my experience? Or is it a general one? If it's general, isn't the way to go, then, to focus on mentalism if you really want to stun an audience?

No. Magic can have an even more profound effect on the RIGHT audience.
Table-hopping you were bound to run into a few hecklers.
When you are offering your services like that be prepared to run into all sorts! That's why I like to organise my own performances. Those who are WILLING to be amazed come along. Anyway, just try to deal with the troublesome. Have a few snappy one-liners in your arsenal ready for use!
Mentalism can admitedly have a more credible appearance but the sheer impossibilty and wonder of magic can leave spectators just as "tongue-tied".

They can both have a great impact, but MOST magic is observation oriented, the spectators observe what YOU can do. Much mentalism is participation oriented and it is more of a look what WE did type of experience.

When spectators become active participants, the impact is stronger.

Just my thoughts

Tony

In my experience mentalism and psychic type material seems to be more impressive. A simple effect like the ID, when performed in an interesting way, seems simply amazing and closer to a possible reality if people believe you might have influenced them psychologically or happened to just get a feeling for what card they might choose before they actually choose it.

Anabelle

Spot on Tony.

You stated the problem in your preamble.

your not a performer. so obviously you have no way to compare.

tell me people watching Michael Amarr are not impressed?

People watching Max Maven are incredibly impressed also.

don't use an amature experience to try to come up with a rule.

sorry if this sounds harsh, but your not the right person to be working to make the

comparison

Posted: Dec 23, 2005 6:16pm
The other thing magic suffers from is that TIMING is far more critical.

when moves are done and such. Mentalism has a much broader scope for a person to be off on timing. So if you don't do much work, as you say, your mentalism will be much better than your magic plain and simple.

don't get me wrong, mentalism has timing issues, but less,and more is cncentrated on presentation, instead of moves and such

Danny

You are mistaken. In all entertainment, timing is crucial, as is audience management. In acts and art forms where attention can be directed away from the performer, timing becomes a bit easier to handle, but it is still there. Ask any comedian standing alone on stage about timing. You lose it, your gone, it is hard to get back. We all have a rhythm to follow, if we lose it, we stutter.

Tony

Having been involved in both Magic and Mentalism for quite some time, I can tell you that the reactions I get from Mentalism are far stronger then any I have ever gotten from Magic. Maybe its because I am a better Mentalist than Magician, who knows.

Basically it comes down to this ... like mentioned above, Mentalism brings the spectators thoughts directly into the equation, thus creating an emotional hook that I feel to be stronger than, "Now watch your signed card". Mentalism leaves them in most cases that what they have just seen, just might be real!

In Magic, (Which I still love very much)they know that their card did not actually dematerialize, and then reconfigure at the top of the deck. I am not saying that this cant be very magical, but at the end of the day, they know that sleight of hand and trickery are the culprits here. Not saying that's a bad thing, in fact it is quite fun for not only the spectators, but the performer as well.

TonyEye I AM a stand up comic so I get it.

second I never mentioned comedy now did I?
I simply said that timing was LESS CRUTIAL! and by saying it is easier to hanlde but is still there you are saying the same thing. where do we disagree?

sbays your right, but does that mean people don't think trickery when you do mentalism? come on man, some may really think you read their mind but it is my suspician you are a better mentalist than magician.

For example, do a signed card under the tablecloth and tell me you get a stronger reaction with mentalism. Like I said you have to put all things equal.

It is not fair to compare magic, which you may not do as well, with mentalism, which you may do a lot better. It is apples and oranges.

Danny
You are right, but it is not because one is a mentalist and one is a magician. Timing can be managed better based on the experience of the performer and the performers attitude and audience treatment. A mentalist and a magician can use the same techniques, i.e. the pass, in a routine. The timing for the pass is still the same, but the mentalist pays no attention to the cards, no attention to the move, his/her attitude is that they are of no consequence, so the audience pays them no mind. Many magicians highlight the cards, so they pay attention to them and draw the audiences attention to them. So timing becomes more crucial. A self-created limitation. But then again, I've seen more experienced magicians ignore the cards and focus attention back to the audience. They remove the limitation.

Timing can be directed and controlled regardless of Magician or mentalist, but it comes with experience and the attitude of the performer. If, as a performer you draw the attention towards yourself, you limit yourself but if you share the attention with the audience, you free yourself up a bit.

Tony

"sbays your right, but does that mean people don't think trickery when you do mentalism? come on man, some may really think you read their mind but it is my suspician you are a better mentalist than magician.

For example, do a signed card under the tablecloth and tell me you get a stronger reaction with mentalism. Like I said you have to put all things equal."


I understand what you are saying here, but I disagree. By the way, I have been doing Shuliens Card under Table cloth for the better part of 6 years. And yes, it garners a tremendous response. However, there is a difference.

Not "everyone" walks away from a mentalism performance believing that they have actually just had their minds peered into by a person with supernatural abilities ... but you know what? some do! It leaves that impression sometimes.

On the other hand ... I doubt that anyone has ever left a magic performance actually believing that a coin, card, watch or rabbit actually DISSAPEARED and rematerialized somewhere else. Children excluded! See what I mean?

I half agree that comparing the two are apples and oranges, but that is the topic here.

I also agree that Mentalism fits my personality more than Magic in general, so maybe you have a point!

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!

Dannydoyle...I think you might be failing to appreciate what YOU know to be true is not the same thing as what the average "non-magic" person knows.

Well, as to the other point, yes, it might be true the it's possible to get the same "volume" of reaction between magic compared to mentalism. But I don't think the "nature" of the reaction is the same.

People know magic is not real. Of course, they can be entertained by David Copperfield, but very few are fooled into thinking he has REAL powers. On the other hand, many people (I'd even venture to say MOST people) can't escape the feeling that Derren Brown DOES have some mystical powers. Even "I" can't comepletely escape that feeling...even though I know a lot of the secrets behind his illusions and even though, on an intellectual level, I know ALL his illusions have a logical (non-mystical) basis to them.

Among other possible reasons I can think of for the allure of mentalism, is the fact (as others here observed) that participant can often take credit themselves for creating the illusion. For example, I do ID by asking "who has psychic powers?" I get volunteer, and ask them to name the card in the deck which I have turned over. When they discouver they DID name the right card, they're usually in the mood to at least CONSIDER the possibility it was GENUINE power that made this possible. You just need to refer to the thread on REMOTE VIEWING that you started to find there's no shortage of people who genuinely believe in things which YOU know are merely illusions. And God bless them. I want to be like them, too

Merry Christmas, Everyone.

Danny makes several valid points and one rather misleading one Mentalism does NOT have less timing issues. It has MORE.

If all you are trying to do is hide the secret then, yes, mentalism MIGHT have more leeway in the timing of that, BUT that would be presenting mentalism as nothing more than magic tricks. That would not be mentalism. Mentalism requires much MORE theatrical timing than magic.

Furthermore, the accurate use of secret hiding timing is more critical in mentalism. In magic if you expose a secret by mistake, it only affects that one trick. In a true mentalism performance if you expose one secret by mistake, the entire show unravels. Much MORE of an issue accurate timing is, folks.

In the end the final observation is the same, experience is critical to engaging your audience.

Cheers,

Tom

Just as a side note, a lot of how an audience reacts to mentalism or magic will depend on the audience themselves. as an example, if you are watching tv, sometimes you want a Drama, other times action, and so on. Although I have very limited experiece with performance, people I understand quite well. Mentalism requires thought and conerntration from both performer and mentalist ( more drama etc) yet magic requires less conertration from the audience (more light entertainment)as they are not always activly involved and the effect will work (most times) whether they are watching or not. Both need the same amount of presentation work, but work in difference circumstances depanding ont he audience. I have performed a simple ID for a few friends sat watching tv to great effect, yet an indepth mentalism effect would have bombed, as their attention was not there.

Kind regards

steve

Tom,
You are 100% correct.