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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » The Protocols of Obsidian Oblique (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Tom Jorgenson
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As you know, if you've been following it, a copy of Obsidian Oblique (plus accompanying frou-frou) sold for a whopping $760!

This raises a supposition better listed under the Prophesies for 2006 topic. I would suppose, now, that a few cockroaches will crawl out from under wherever and offer up some imediate knock-off copies at a few measley hundred bucks or so. I would think the temptation would be too great to resist, for some.


So: 1) How is an author, such as Mr. Bellon, to prevent knockoffs from being sold...number them and keep track of who has what number? Upload the list to Wikipedia so we'd all know?

What can be done to protect the ethical consumer from purchasing the fraudulent?

2) What if magician X offered to simply teach it to you for $100...or $50...or $25...what's your price, or do you have one? Or would you step aside and continue with the one you now know and use?

I am more interested in responses to the first thing than the second.
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landmark
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Some good ideas there. I suppose the usual anti-counterfeiting measures might also be used, though sometimes expensive i.e. watermarked paper, threads in the paper, special inks, holograms. That would take care of the physical property from being ripped off.

Much more difficult is protecting the intellectual property. It doesn't take much to photocopy, scan a work, or simply write up a Word document and thus disseminate the ideas. And though I have no idea what the OO move consists of, from what I understand it is the move itself that is highly prized, rather than just the limited edition of the book.

Jack Shalom
harishjose
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Why don't you just not release it?
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Tom Jorgenson
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Hmm. Not a solution in most cases, as magicians want to/need to release material for whatever reasons.
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Vision
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The thing is, anything published will get ripped off. As simple as that, unfortunately not much we can do about it. Especially in cases like Obsidian, which is a pricey thing to get a hold of, just like you pointed out. There will be thieves out there seeing the chance to make some easy money.

I have, and know other who have now started using the same thing, started using imperceptible markings. Since my stuff has always been self published, it's an easy thing to do. For each copy sent out I make a list as to who has which marking. They are all marked differently and it's impossible to tell apart. Smile So if a copy is found somewhere, I can easily check who's ripping me off. Problem being, obviously, to find said pirate copy. But at least its something.

//daniel
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Thomas Rudolfo
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I fully agree. In the days of internet its very hard to prevent some from copying. Vision's solution might be one way.

Another way would be like many software-companies do (like microsoft and others). They calculate an amount for pirate copies into the regular price. Since I have my origin in computer science I can tell you that when you buy one copy of MS Office i.e. you also pay for several pirate copies.

Though it is a little comfort for the companies of course it's not so good for the customers since you also pay for some priate copies. But again it's very hard to overcome this problem. So IMO its understandable that some charge a higher price for their books at least to try to prevent some from copying.

Greetings
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Vision
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For some reason I have the feeling that those that pirate can't really afford to buy the books, or they wouldn't want to. So if priced right, they wont buy it, and those that do, aren't going to spread it around for free at least, because he did pay a certain amount of money for it. But again, that wont stop people from copying. But it would certainly reduce it Im sure.

In one way, and I've said this before, I can sometime understand pirates (to a certain extent) too much crap is being released within our field. So if you gonna keep up with it all you have to fork out hundreds of dollars each month, if not more. That doesn't justify piracy of course, but anyway... you get what I'm saying. Im happy when I've paid for somehting that in itself is beautiful, as opposed to when you open up that envelope and it's just some a4 pages stapled together, I'm sure you all know the feeling. Im sure you would find that less hardcover book are being copied. At least that sounds probable.

Anyway, just a few thoughts...
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harishjose
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Question:
What if the person is not in your country? And also even if you find that a person is a culprit, what can you do to "punish" him?
If you ask me, there are a lot of loopholes in the system itself. I am not offering any solutions here, am I?
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Tom Jorgenson
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That's true...how many would take things to a lawyer, who could afford it? Even if there was a central 'Naughty-Boy' list of pirates, how would you prevent false claims from warring people? Dilemma, dilemma dilemma.
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John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2005-12-27 12:21, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
That's true...how many would take things to a lawyer, who could afford it? Even if there was a central 'Naughty-Boy' list of pirates, how would you prevent false claims from warring people? Dilemma, dilemma dilemma.


The problem, my friend, is that integrity relies on a "gentleman's agreement" to do the right thing. The number of gentlemen left in our (magic) corner of the world seems to be growing smaller and smaller every day.

I believe we are spiraling towards the inevitable: the really good stuff will be handed from inventor/writer to trusted friend -- and/or priced such that $1,800 for a holdout will seem like a bargain to those who are bemoaning it's price today (which, for what it's worth, I happen to think is fair.)

John
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bubbleburst2004
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Obsidian Oblique has several factors that will ensure it's value is held and grow.
The limited run, the secrets it contains, the production value of the book.

My prediction, even if the contents, were widely distributed, it will hold it's value to book collectors. I'm holding onto my copy.

BB
Tom Jorgenson
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I agree, John....and I think it has a lot to do with the exponential growth of the number of magicians now, as opposed to 'then'...more kinds of people, not bigger percentages, perhaps, of dishonest ones, but just bigger numbers of them. And better tools.
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Ken Dyne
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It's about respect. if you want to learn a great technique, for goodness sake pay the guys (or gals) who spent the time to come up with it and develop it. If you are going to send copies of OO to people you are ripping off Alain Bellon, you may as well go right round his house and steal his TV set.
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harishjose
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The way the music industry is tackling illegal downloads is by reducing the price. I don't know what OO's method is. I know its a treatise on peeks based on Miller's move. But I have heard from other people who own it that it was expensive. I myself am not interested in paying a high price for something like that. Sinful (being just one trick and not requiring any gimmicks) for about $30 is right. I know my post is not upto the taste of most people here. But someone should burst bubbles.
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John LeBlanc
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Quote:
On 2005-12-28 08:56, harishjose wrote:
The way the music industry is tackling illegal downloads is by reducing the price.

That's the way some in the industry are doing it. Not all releases are listed at $9.99. Some marquee names still command a higher price. Supply and demand.


Quote:
On 2005-12-28 08:56, harishjose wrote:
I don't know what OO's method is. I know its a treatise on peeks based on Miller's move. But I have heard from other people who own it that it was expensive. I myself am not interested in paying a high price for something like that. Sinful (being just one trick and not requiring any gimmicks) for about $30 is right. I know my post is not upto the taste of most people here. But someone should burst bubbles.

Just as in the case of music, you have the choice of either buying it or not buying it at the asking price. What you don't have the option of is choosing your own price and forcing that on the rights holder.

When nobody buys something at a particular price, the "demand" part of "supply and demand" kicks in and suggests to the seller the price is too high. His response should be to lower the price. But when there is limited supply -- as in the case of the Bellon book -- the "supply" side of "supply and demand" kicks in and the price goes up.

The issue here -- and in the case of music -- is that some buyers think they are justified to both demand the right to ownership and dictate to the seller the price they wish to pay. When those two demands are not met, many rationalize stealing a copy.

The word "copyright" has two words at its base: copy and right. The copyright owner has the right to control how copies of his work are transferred and at what price. Don't like it? Don't buy it. But don't steal a copy either.

John
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Ken Dyne
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Bellon's OO is not just a handling or treatise on the Millard Longman Acidus billet.
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
harishjose
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My mistake in saying Millard as Miller. As I said, I don't own OO. I am not supporting the "stealing" in any manner. I am trying to reason the thinking, that's all. And John, I did make my choice of not buying OO based on the price. And magic cannot be compared with any other consumable item. Only a few places offer return policies. I don't think we have a clear cut solution to the piracy.
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Ken Dyne
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I think that magic is generally underprice d. we are paying for secrets here. Some people say products are too expensive, my response is that if you can't afford to buy it, then don't buy it. In my opinion magic should be priced so highly that only people who make a living from the secrets should be able to afford it. Think about a course in master NLP training. it is expensive and puts most people off. If you want to make a living form NLP you will pay the fee.

I also think that most magicians are too cheap too...that is another story.
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
harishjose
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Well Kennedy, strong words there. Why do a magician/mentalist/performer release secrets? He doesn't do it as a favor to the magic community. If he did, he would give them away for free. Ultimately its for making money or for satisfying ones ego. To each, his own opinion. Its hard to believe that we create anything new. Its usually a modification of this and that and mixing of this with that.
I sure would like it old ways, when you could learn it from the master, much like any other art. And as for your second statement, its the same reason you don't find a lot of pros here in Café. Think about it.
As for NLP, even the creators are not sure anymore about it. All the so called trainers have ruined it. It has evolved into some form of cult (same as some fileds of magic). Bandler kept on creating new things on a faster rate than Sankey. I appreciate Neurosemantics more than cruder NLP.
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mysticz
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Quote:
On 2005-12-28 08:56, harishjose wrote:
I don't know what OO's method is. I know its a treatise on peeks based on Miller's move. But I have heard from other people who own it that it was expensive.


Obsidian Oblique was not expensive when it was originally released two years ago (I believe I paid around $60 for the book and CD). However, it was a limited release and one had to act quickly to have the opportunity to procure it. Consequently, when the news got out that the OO concept was a very good one, the demand grew substantially.

Regardless of why Alain Bellon decided to market OO in this manner, it remains a wonderful technique that he did not intend for mass distribution to the magic community. If you feel that you need to know this technique, then you must be willing to pay the price (if and when the opportunity presents itself).

It's really as simple as that.

Joe Z.
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

-- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175
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