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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts 
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I gotta agree with the view Scorch offered above. The material was offered for your education and as ready made for performing.
Perhaps we could consider the instructional DVD as a script and director's notes for a play and TRY IT AS OFFERED, at le at least till we have enough audience feedback to make sense of the material. Just my 0.0002 cents in addition to what was posted earlier.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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I have to agree with you Jonathan Townsend - you put that very well.
"Perhaps we could consider the instructional DVD as a script and director's notes for a play and TRY IT AS OFFERED." Very well put indeed thank you very much! As much as anyone I am also looking for answers and have a hard time reading the questions.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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mxray Loyal user 276 Posts
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As someone who has never been in the position of having to put together an entire show or act, I don't feel qualified to say a lot here.
Only that this has thus far been one of the more interesting threads I have read here in a while. I honestly feel a little honored to get to read some of these people's personal thoughts on this. MXRay |
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georgef New user 64 Posts
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Samuel's words seem to have been taken a bit far.
I agree with the "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". If you take any published video routine and perform it, there shouldn't be any reason why you shouldn't. Plus, anyone who has performed any card tricks with any degree of sleight of hand will have developed some degree of their own performing 'style', so any "copied" routine will always have some element of the performer in it. It would be much harder to duplicate a routine word for word than to perform the same routine with the same outline and add your own touches, whether subconsciously or not. Scorch's music (Yo-yo Ma) analogy is quite valid. Almost all classical music performers perform someone else's work, but these works were intended to be performed by others, and were never meant to be kept under wraps by their creator. If a magician wanted to keep a routine solely for his/her own performance, it simply wouldn't be published. If one does decide to try to copy as much as possible of a DVD routine, I do believe that it is intended to better him/herself as a magic performer. Undoubtedly, that copied performance would evolve into the performer's own style, which will help the person learn to be a better magician in the end. It may not be the standard route, but I don't think there's anything wrong with following in someone's exact footsteps, at least for a while. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Some might wish to consider learning a new routine as offered as an opportunity to examine their own habits and preferences in contrast to the direction offered.
A score contains most of the instructions needed to play a piece as the composer intends. The magic video offers something similar. It can't hurt to at least be mindful of technical and personal choices.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicbob116 Inner circle 1523 Posts
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To continue the music analogy... even though Yo Yo Ma plays Ravel's notes verbatim, it is the interpretation that a soloist or orchestra conductor brings to the piece to make it their own. If an aspiring cellist simply tries to imitate Yo Yo Ma, they will never develop their OWN voice and interpretation. Much the same could be said for magic. You have to find your own voice (read: performance style). Even though you might perform the mechanics of a routine verbatim, you should strive to make it YOUR interpretation rather than just imitating someone else's style. To switch analogies... it's much like the difference between an original masterpeice and a paint by number kit.
B. Robert Pulver
The "I Hate Card Tricks!" Book of Card Tricks Vol. 1, 2, and 3 Kards for Kids Sticky Situations Sleightly Wacky magicbob116@yahoo.com |
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JSBLOOM Inner circle 2024 Posts
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I have been told Copycating is the greatest form of flattery!
Of course, some people can not pull it off do to their personality. What I find even more difficult is there are SO many great effects out there! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-12-28 22:58, magicbob116 wrote:...To switch analogies... it's much like the difference between an original masterpeice and a paint by number kit. The instructional video is offered as a paint by numbers kit. Probably best used as intended. There are not so many among us who have the talent, skills and artistic vision to do something special using the materials from a kit. It can be done though. I saw someone take a restuarant placemat intended for children to connect dots and color in... and make something much more interesting.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Samuel Special user Norway 831 Posts
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I just want to thank you all for your great responses. It has been very clarifying to hear what you think, and I really agree with most of you.
Mr. Osterlind: Thank you for your kind answer and tips regarding what you do. To try to sum up: It's ok to take a show from a Instructional DVD and perform it as ones own show. It's especially good if you are a new performer, as this will in turn give both confidence and experience. You should, eventually, modify the material so that it will fit you as a performer. In turn, this will make you a better magician.
Samuel
Magic is everywhere |
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-12-29 09:54, Samuel wrote: Amen, to that! 
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Eric Falconer Veteran user Houston 378 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-12-29 09:54, Samuel wrote: You not only should modify the material but in my opinion you eventually WILL modify the material. Your personality is too strong. It will eventually leak out. Take the example of a cover band or one of the Elvis, Beatles, Roy Orbison... imitators. Yes they look and sound LIKE their models but their own personality affects their imitation. The question of wether you should copy material that is in a published format comes down to two things IMO. 1) Legally: Yes you can because you paid for it. If you don't want your material copied and performed, then legally protect it. Or just don't publish it. Occasionally you will see the trick will say "you are also purchasing rights to perform on TV" etc etc. 2) Presentationally: As you imitate/perform you will develop your own presentation. Eventually all traces of the original lines/blocking/gestures will be different enough that they will no longer be imitations and you will have your own presentation. Unfortunately this mutation may not result in a "better" presentation. You may have to go back to the original. Often I tried to put my own jokes or words into someone elses routine. I would try to combine effects or I would try to add multiple climaxes. More often my results were less than the original. But not always. This is an ongoing process. Just my $2.00 worth.
Eric Falconer
Houston TX |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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The one teaching might not have a right to complain but what about the public, what would the public think of you?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Samuel Special user Norway 831 Posts
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Do you really think they would know? I live in Norway, if I were to perform a piece of Max Maven or Richard Osterlind, who would ever know?
Samuel
Magic is everywhere |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Perhaps they wouldn't but I am sure a lot there would know the real Lennart Green for example.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts
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Here are two other thought provoking questions...
You buy an instructional DVD, and as you're about to start learning, a message comes one the screen telling you that certain rights are not allowed "Trade Show Rights Reserved". "TV performances reserved for the creator." Another issue is a performance only DVD. If you buy a DVD that is performance only is that material protected and off limits?
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Wow Samuel a GREAT thread.. really thought provoking
it is tough because when we were "learning" in the beginning that is( we learn every day hopefully) we ALL had to "copy" somethnig now didn't we? I did for sure! as far as performance goes at some point we copy ideas, concepts, methods, and things like this all the time with no backlash from anyone. This is accepted in the art as we learn from each other. then when it comes to the routines, well then it gets sketchy. to learn timing we have to be "taught" things through concepts and routines and HOPEFULLY we will grow and add our own personality. this is the method I certianly used. Problem is when people never bother to grow. Why fix what ain't broken>? So they keep doing the others material and it is 20 years later and still doing it! Lazy or scared to change. The other problem comes in when you start doing a coin trick and you "become" David Roth, then you do a card trick and you "become" Darwin, and you do the paper balls over the head and you "become" Slydini. All WORTHY beyond words of being immitated, but none consistant with who you are. so I am in the middle. If and only IF you procede to becomeing YOU then it is a great thing. If not it is a bad thing. As far as flattery, well if it is on a DVD then go for it. If you simply see it done it is wrong plain and simple. It is not a compliment to lift a show which is NOT offered for sale. This was NOT asked but it needed to be clarified. for it would not be a compliment to your taste in women if I came into your bedroom and stole your wife now would it? There is a huge difference between that and the original question, some fail to see it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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sbays Inner circle Burbank, CA 1065 Posts
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Quote: On 2005-12-29 13:08, Frank Starsini wrote:
"Opportunity may only knock once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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I am sorry but I do not think that there is any way to protect a performing magicians performing act, show or material. Magicians for many years when they see a magician on the TV - like something. They copy it. That is what happens.
It happened to Don Alan before video tape recorders that made it easy to copy an act or a show. It happened to Jack Gwynne with his stack of bowls routine and that story was written up in the David Carvet Gwynne book. If the routine is published and the magicians paid for the routine by a purchase agreement for the product that is a different story. If I remember right when David Roth came through Chicago and Lectured for the Mazda Mystics he was more than a little upset at Frank Garcia and accused him of stealing his portable hole routine. And that routine was the only routine from David Roth’s act that was in the lecture. And if I remember right the only reason it was in the lecture was because David Roth wanted to protect it. Some magicians seem to want to lay claim to certain magic effects. If you see a magician on TV or at a show, or see something at a web site it may be a different story and not fair play to copy things that are there as entertainment or a demonstration. There is a thing called fair usage - as well as FAIR PLAY IN MAGIC! Sometimes learning magic is a choice between what is right and what is easy to get!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Glenn once Tommy Edwards was telling me how someone told him his act bombed last week in Peoria. He stated he wasn't in Peoria last week and the response was "I know I did your act last week in Peoria and it bonbed!". I am not sure if he was serious or simply making a point through humor the way he and Jay used to but it is a funny anticdote!
Glenn both you and I know who Don Alans biggest problem was with for coppying his show and no need to mention names, but Don had a point I think!! I love this subject
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-12-29 13:54, Dannydoyle wrote: I knew Don Alan quite well. I also know his kids. There was a guy that did his (Don's act and trademark effects) act at a hospitality room for a large corporation the first week and Don was booked the second week. As I heard it from Don - he was more than a little upset by that. That was before he got upset at Terry Vecky for producing a large nut from a bowl routine. Later Terry and Don became friends. Don Booked me for a short while because I did not do his stuff. I do the chop cup with dice but when I worked for Don I left it at home. Just like when I worked with Jimmy Cards Molinari last week. I did about 4 card effects. No card shark stuff. Mostly cups and balls - the shell game - chop dice cup. But as far as I saw it Jimmy was the card expert so I just did easy stuff out of respect to the master with the deck!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Posted: Dec 29, 2005 12:58 am 
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