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Dannydoyle
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Eternal Order
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Then your arguements have NO merrit, for science can NOT deal with matters beyond the physical universe now can it?

you want to use science as some sort of measuring stick when convienent, but abandon it when it is no longer usefull.

you can make no factual references to the "spiritual self" because they can not be qualified or quantified. your making philisophical arguements at best. all of which have nothing to do with hypnosis I may add.

you seem to be putting forth a "religious" arguement in sheeps clothing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Lee Darrow
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V.I.P.
Chicago, IL USA
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Rutabaga states:
Quote:
Mr. Darrow, you are mired in an intellectual swamp. "Appearances CAN be deceiving" applies to the intellect only. In the spiritual, all deception is impossible.


Odd, I thought that deception in the spiritual realm was what happened all the time between the forces of Light and Dark, Good and Evil. See the various failed doomsday cults for some really great examples for starters - or the Shakers.

No swamp there at all. And you are quoting me out of context. My context was that you are making your judgement based on your observations alone, without understanding the mechanics of WHAT you are observing and THAT is flawed logic.

"To the uninitiated, any sufficiently advanced science will appear as magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

We are discussing this on a forum on a board that is dedicated to magicians and magic. In magic, it may appear that someone reads someone else's mind, or that they bend a spoon or other metal object with their mind - but the appearance is NOT what happens - even though there are MANY who believe on a spiritual level, that this is exactly what happens - even after they have been SHOWN that the spoon was bent on the edge of the table while their eyes and/or minds were distracted! Or that they simply WANTED to believe.

Remember Dunninger's most famous Quote? "To one who believes - no explanation is necessary. To one who disbelieves, no explanation is possible."

So to say that in matters spiritual all deception is impossible is to state an absurdity. In point of fact, the most common spiritual deception is self deception - buying in to the false teachings of those who claim to know that which they really do NOT know, but who have a good line of bull and who can back it up with quotations used selective instance out takes from whatever religious texts they decide to use. See David Koresh, Jim Jones and Om Shin Rikyo (the nice folks who put nerve gas in the Tokyo subway because it was the "spiritual thing to do") for proofs, again.

This is NOT to say that religion is wrong, not in the slightest. My own religious beliefs are strongly and deeply held and, while I cannot prove them scientifically, they also do not run counter TO science, either.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein

You admit to ignorance of your OWN myths, yet do not look to see what myths you might be operating under by educating yourself as to the factual and scientific realities of how something like hypnosis actually works - denying that this information could possibly be useful to you in your search for knowledge, even though it IS knowledge in and of itself.

"If the mechanics of a thing preclude that thing from performing in a given manner, then the thing cannot accomplish what has been claimed of it." - Design Theory 101 - University Press This is a basic premise of ANY design.

Yet you refuse to look AT the design, looking only at what you see, through the filters of the preconceptions that you have already stated that you have about hypnosis.

You have yet to define your terms and have used what is called "weasle words" to try to avoid dealing with the logical flaws in your premise as well. You have not defined "spiritual maturity," nor have you defined the operation of the term "the binding of the free will" to any extent, either, in spite of my repeated requests for clarification. Nor have you stated the consequences of this supposed "binding," if one is released from it when hypnosis is terminated, whether it is ongoing, even if the hypnotee has only one session, without post hypnotic suggestions, or dealt with any of a hundred other variables that come into question with regards to your allegations.

These terms are what are known as nominalizations - names for things that have no meaning until they are defined. You seem to be using these terms the way a propagandist does - to incite high emotions and negative responses from people. Americans, especially, value their freedoms, and such "loaded language" has been used before to incite some very ugly responses in our country - the Red Scare of the 1950's, the Japanese Internment during WWII, the near-total genocide of the Native American Peoples, just for openers, come to mind.

So please - define your terms in detail, not just in more nominalizations, like "spiritual maturity as the purpose of life," state your proof sources and let's move this into a more productive intellectual area of debate.

Personally, I am open to the discussion, as you may have noted, but your premises are still on very shaky grounds from a logic standpoint, to say nothing of a linguistic one.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
magickdabid--uk
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Rutabaga,
thanks for your response, please continue.......

" I am informed by spiritual realities"..... Where do these come from?, & who or what is passing them on to you?


Dave
rutabaga
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Toronto, Canada
1276 Posts

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Mr. Darrow,

Quote:
…I thought that deception in the spiritual realm was what happened all the time between the forces of Light and Dark, Good and Evil. See the various failed doomsday cults for some really great examples for starters - or the Shakers.


You thought wrong. Deception, darkness, evil, cults and Shakers all exist in spheres below the spiritual. A knowledge of the laws and structure of creation would demonstrate the absurdity of your assertion. Sorry to be so blunt.

Quote:
My context was that you are making your judgement based on your observations alone, without understanding the mechanics of WHAT you are observing and THAT is flawed logic.


I am making NO judgments, only observations of the consequences of hypnotism, which are clear to me.

Quote:
…to say that in matters spiritual all deception is impossible is to state an absurdity. In point of fact, the most common spiritual deception is self deception - buying in to the false teachings of those who claim to know that which they really do NOT know, but who have a good line of bull and who can back it up with quotations used selective instance out takes from whatever religious texts they decide to use. See David Koresh, Jim Jones and Om Shin Rikyo (the nice folks who put nerve gas in the Tokyo subway because it was the "spiritual thing to do") for proofs, again.

This is NOT to say that religion is wrong, not in the slightest. My own religious beliefs are strongly and deeply held and, while I cannot prove them scientifically, they also do not run counter TO science, either.


I say again: in matters spiritual, all deception is impossible! In addition, those who depend on others for their spiritual welfare, in the form of ready made opinions or beliefs, will either succumb to spiritual slumber or worse, or will be rudely awakened by circumstance to the realities of their situation.

What I say here does not run counter to science – in fact, as scientific knowledge progresses, it will reinforce my comments.

Quote:
You admit to ignorance of your OWN myths, yet do not look to see what myths you might be operating under by educating yourself as to the factual and scientific realities of how something like hypnosis actually works - denying that this information could possibly be useful to you in your search for knowledge, even though it IS knowledge in and of itself.


I admit no such thing! There is knowledge of the world of matter [science], and there is experiencing of that which transcends it. I have no interest in scientific gropings about subjects which are beyond its reach. These things can only be grasped by that of the same species, the spiritual.

Quote:
You have yet to define your terms and have used what is called "weasle words" to try to avoid dealing with the logical flaws in your premise as well. You have not defined "spiritual maturity," nor have you defined the operation of the term "the binding of the free will" to any extent, either, in spite of my repeated requests for clarification. Nor have you stated the consequences of this supposed "binding," if one is released from it when hypnosis is terminated, whether it is ongoing, even if the hypnotee has only one session, without post hypnotic suggestions, or dealt with any of a hundred other variables that come into question with regards to your allegations.

These terms are what are known as nominalizations - names for things that have no meaning until they are defined. You seem to be using these terms the way a propagandist does - to incite high emotions and negative responses from people. Americans, especially, value their freedoms, and such "loaded language" has been used before to incite some very ugly responses in our country - the Red Scare of the 1950's, the Japanese Internment during WWII, the near-total genocide of the Native American Peoples, just for openers, come to mind.

So please - define your terms in detail, not just in more nominalizations, like "spiritual maturity as the purpose of life," state your proof sources and let's move this into a more productive intellectual area of debate.


I have purposely been using very general terms to convey my position in the most simple way. There is no attempt at clever intellectual manipulations to try and convince those who might be vulnerable to such things. Perhaps the simplicity of my communication is viewed with suspicion in an intellectual environment.

However, the scope of what you ask for is beyond this forum. Assertions and doubts as to my intentions have already been made or inferred, and I have no wish to incite them further. I am simply raising awareness of this issue for those who might hear. Any further details are best left for a more private discussion. I am available through PM for those so inclined.
mota
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Inner circle
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Rutabaga,

You forgot to warn us about the boogey man...
Lee Darrow
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Chicago, IL USA
3589 Posts

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Rutabaga wrote:
Quote:
Deception, darkness, evil, cults and Shakers all exist in spheres below the spiritual. A knowledge of the laws and structure of creation would demonstrate the absurdity of your assertion. Sorry to be so blunt.


Really? Not according to them, nor to their interpretation of Scripture, nor to their Divine Inspiration, so I have to ask you - where does YOUR understanding come from?

Quote:
I am making NO judgments, only observations of the consequences of hypnotism, which are clear to me.


Again, from here, it certainly looks different that how you are seeing it. Your first post was a pretty clear warning to steer clear of hypnosis as it posed a spiritual danger. That, my friend, is a judgement call.

Quote:
I say again: in matters spiritual, all deception is impossible! In addition, those who depend on others for their spiritual welfare, in the form of ready made opinions or beliefs, will either succumb to spiritual slumber or worse, or will be rudely awakened by circumstance to the realities of their situation.

What I say here does not run counter to science – in fact, as scientific knowledge progresses, it will reinforce my comments.


If one posits a spiritual side to the world, which I certainly believe in, then the possibility exists for deception OF the spirit. This has been proven time and again, especially by the self deception, made by the person who fully believes that he or she has found the Truth - only to find out that they were dead wrong.

I submit that YOU could very well be in such a place. Pride goeth before a fall and your post certainly shows more than a bit of pride - or, at least hubris in that you do not seem to be able to admit that you MIGHT be wrong in your observations.

"No one's eyes are so clouded as he who truly believes that he has found the One True Way." - Bahal'ua. (and yes, I know I spelled it wrong - look at the hour...)

With regard to weasle words and avoiding defining the actual "threat" that you perceive, you responded thus:

Quote:
I have purposely been using very general terms to convey my position in the most simple way. There is no attempt at clever intellectual manipulations to try and convince those who might be vulnerable to such things. Perhaps the simplicity of my communication is viewed with suspicion in an intellectual environment.

However, the scope of what you ask for is beyond this forum. Assertions and doubts as to my intentions have already been made or inferred, and I have no wish to incite them further. I am simply raising awareness of this issue for those who might hear. Any further details are best left for a more private discussion. I am available through PM for those so inclined.


In other words: "I won't answer." No assertion is being made about your motivations whatsoever other than this - in an honest debate, definition of terms is de rigeur.

Also, your assertion that you are "raising awareness of this issue" is a non sequitur simply because you have failed TO define those very terms and failed to define the actual "threat" that you have been going on about.

Your position is untenable at this point.

Quod Erat Demonstratum.

However, I thank you for taking the time and effort involved in this exchange.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
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