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JackScratch
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I see, so know we enter into the "Saying there is a Santa Clause to a child is just a dirty lie." Phase of the arguement. I think what magic is, is far less in question than what a lie is. There are defenitly untruths that are not lies. Till all of you figure that out, this debate is a waste of time.
tommy
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I think you see what is not there yet will not see what is.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jaz
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The debate is not a waste of time.
It gets people thinking.
If you believe in Santa or that there are untruths that are not lies then that's fine.

Jack, "a dirty lie" you say? I wonder, when kids are told that such and such is not real, do they feel lied to, feel that they've been told an untruth or simply tricked?
My post was about people, who may not believe in our type of magic, do have some beliefs in certain things that border on magic.
kregg
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 14:21, JackScratch wrote:
There are defenitly untruths that are not lies.


Try not to lump all lies in a heap of moral turpitude. I've said it before, not all lies are bad.
POOF!
JackScratch
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 14:39, Jaz wrote:
The debate is not a waste of time.
It gets people thinking.
If you believe in Santa or that there are untruths that are not lies then that's fine.

Jack, "a dirty lie" you say? I wonder, when kids are told that such and such is not real, do they feel lied to, feel that they've been told an untruth or simply tricked?
My post was about people, who may not believe in our type of magic, do have some beliefs in certain things that border on magic.


My point is, and has been that "magic" is very real, and true, it's just not what everyone seems to think it is, or think it is supposed to be.

Reality is very much mutable, and perception is reality. Until you are convinced that magic isn't real, it is. Until you are convinced that there is no Santa, there is a Santa. The "There is no such thing as magic." statement is a nieve' one. Saying that magic is a lie, any kind of lie, is based on the idea that there is no such thing as magic. If a person does not believe in magic, then a magician is simply a performer, trying to entertain, not decieve them. If a person does believe in magic, then who are you, or I, to tell them that what we do isn't real? That would be a lie. At the very least, it would be a mistake.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 14:21, JackScratch wrote:
There are defenitly untruths that are not lies.



Only the inadvertent or ironic ones. A deliberate untruth, with the intent to deceive, is the very definition of a lie. Telling someone something untrue and intending to deceive them is always a lie. That's what the word means. Check your dictionary, check your encyclopedia of philosophy, check any reference you want. Unless you're inventing your own definition of the word, a "lie" IS, by definition, a deliberate untruth with the intent to deceive.

It may be said that not all lies are bad ("white" lies, e.g.), but they're all still lies.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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On 2006-05-07 14:32, tommy wrote:
I think you see what is not there yet will not see what is.


Anyone want to diagram this one and point out the presuppositions, normalizations etc?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
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I'm reminded of Abraham Lincoln, who allegedly once asked someone, "How many legs would a cow have, if you called a tail a leg?" The person he was talking to said, "Five." Abe said, "No, it would have four. Calling a tail a leg wouldn't make it a leg."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
JackScratch
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 14:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-05-07 14:21, JackScratch wrote:
There are defenitly untruths that are not lies.



Only the inadvertent or ironic ones. A deliberate untruth, with the intent to deceive, is the very definition of a lie. Telling someone something untrue and intending to deceive them is always a lie. That's what the word means. Check your dictionary, check your encyclopedia of philosophy, check any reference you want. Unless you're inventing your own definition of the word, a "lie" IS, by definition, a deliberate untruth with the intent to deceive.

It may be said that not all lies are bad ("white" lies, e.g.), but they're all still lies.



Your problem is that you think you know what is true. That's the reason I put in that caveat. Until you realise you don't get to define reality for everyone else, then you are probably better off just changing your definition of "lie". I know what a lie is, just like you. I don't, however believe I'm going to be able to convinvce you that truth isn't what you think it is, so telling you that there are untruths that are not lies, is just going to be easier. That is unless you change your whole outlook on reality. I remain optimistic for you.

If, as a magician, you do not believe what you present, how can you expect your audience to. More importantly, why are you presenting it?
Jaz
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OK Jack. So the magic of Santa is real until the kids learn the truth. I see.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2006-05-07 15:07, JackScratch wrote:


Your problem is that you think you know what is true. That's the reason I put in that caveat. Until you realise you don't get to define reality for everyone else, then you are probably better off just changing your definition of "lie".


I think it's actually you who is trying to define reality for everyone else. There's not a old guy with a red suit and beard to delivers presents on Christmas Day. That's reality. A believe that such a person exists does not create the reality that he does.

For someone who professes not to believe in objective reality, you sure do often seem to think that others whose ideas do not comport with yours are wrong. If reality is as ephemeral as you suggest, then how is it so concrete to you that your philosophy of magic and reality are correct and others' are in error?

Philosophy's Law of the Excluded Middle tells us that if one kid says that Santa Claus exists, and one says he doesn't, then exactly one of them is right; not both, and not neither. If you want to reject the Law of the Excluded Middle, perhaps as having too limited a view of reality, that's fine...but if you do, then how is it that those who disagree with you aren't every bit as right as you are?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
JackScratch
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 15:13, Jaz wrote:
OK Jack. So the magic of Santa is real until the kids learn the truth. I see.



I truely hope you didn't mean that sarcasticly. It's exactly what I ment. I wouldn't have used the word "truth" though.
tommy
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I think you see what is not there yet will not see what is.
I have that effect on everyone since I am a real Wiz.



Polish that Jon. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 15:07, JackScratch wrote:

If, as a magician, you do not believe what you present, how can you expect your audience to. More importantly, why are you presenting it?



To use as an example someone who says the things I believe in a more eloquent way, I think I can safely say that Whit Haydn doesn't actually believe that in his ambitious card routine, for instance, the molecules of the selected card disassemble, thus making it lighter than the other cards so it traverses up and reconstitutes itself on top of the pack.

But man, his audiences sure do believe it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
JackScratch
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I bet he does. I hope he responds.

BTW, both children are correct. The fat man in the red suit exists and does not exist. You still aren't getting it. Perception "IS" reality.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2006-05-07 15:20, JackScratch wrote:

BTW, both children are correct. The fat man in the red suit exists and does not exist. You still aren't getting it. Perception "IS" reality.


Please don't think that because I disagree with your point, I don't understand it.
But by your own logic, someone who believes that perception ISN'T reality (myself, for instance) must be correct. If you aren't being disingenuous, and you actually believe that perception IS reality, then you must admit that MY perception (that perception is NOT reality) is as valid as your belief. It's my perception, so by your logic, it's reality.

In the same way that you would say both children are correct in their beliefs about Santa Claus (though I disagree), your purported worldview dictates that someone who believes that perception is reality, and someone who believes that perception is not reality, are both correct. To deny this is to be completely inconsistent with your stated worldview.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jaz
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 15:17, JackScratch wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-05-07 15:13, Jaz wrote:
OK Jack. So the magic of Santa is real until the kids learn the truth. I see.



I truely hope you didn't mean that sarcasticly. It's exactly what I ment. I wouldn't have used the word "truth" though.


No sarcasm intended.
Just understanding what you're saying.
Dannydoyle
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Jack let me just say WELCOME TO OUTCAST ISLAND.

We are pretty much alone which is why I have even given up arguing out of frustration.

There is none so blind as those who wish NOT to see! Just keep that in mind.

Guys first do everyone a favor. Define terms. Lie, magic, and who your taking a perspective of. your arguing differnt things.

Second wake up. This is in no way really healthy for magic. Sorry. Pontificate all you want it is a mental exersize for magicians alone. Theater people do NOT debate if Hamlet is real. They are smart enough to know the difference. EVEN IF THE AUDIENCE OR SOME OF ITS MEMBERS WILL NOT!

The same percentage of people who think magic is real, is relativly equivilant to those who feel batman is real I would bet.

Now if your gonna have the Santa debate it gets tough. Santa as the "kids" percieve him is not real. Santa as a figure to spread good cheer and to make people happy at a certian time of year DOES exist and is quite real. As I said please define terms.

Jack I think your right. People as a "rule" don't believe in magic. If you think your getting a better reaction from a floating routine than "I can't even see the wires" your reading your own press clippings too much. Does anyone really beleive even if people can't come up with an explination, that they think magic? Come on guys.
That fact is what makes this debate kind of goofy to me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JackScratch
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On 2006-05-07 15:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-05-07 15:20, JackScratch wrote:

BTW, both children are correct. The fat man in the red suit exists and does not exist. You still aren't getting it. Perception "IS" reality.


Please don't think that because I disagree with your point, I don't understand it.
But by your own logic, someone who believes that perception ISN'T reality (myself, for instance) must be correct. If you aren't being disingenuous, and you actually believe that perception IS reality, then you must admit that MY perception (that perception is NOT reality) is as valid as your belief. It's my perception, so by your logic, it's reality.

In the same way that you would say both children are correct in their beliefs about Santa Claus (though I disagree), your purported worldview dictates that someone who believes that perception is reality, and someone who believes that perception is not reality, are both correct. To deny this is to be completely inconsistent with your stated worldview.

No, I admit, your truth is also truth. It's just a sad one, that's all. I think it's realy a shame when a magician, of all people, can't let go of his death grip on imperical reality and actualy appreciate what he does. I feel it has to affect their performance when that happens. BTW, I thought about it. It is possible, I know I'm a lot like this, that Whit considers himself a master of the art of card handling. That what he believes isn't magic, per se', but rather an acceptional skill. That will show itself in his performance. He will present it to his audience in the way he believes it. Sort of "No magic here, I'm just realy realy skilled".
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2006-05-07 15:32, JackScratch wrote:

No, I admit, your truth is also truth. It's just a sad one, that's all. I think it's realy a shame when a magician, of all people, can't let go of his death grip on imperical reality and actualy apreciate what he does. I feel it has to affect their performance when that happens. BTW, I thought about it. It is possible, I know I'm a lot like this, that Whit considers himself a master of the art of card handling. That what he believes isn't magic, per se', but rather an acceptional skill. That will show itself in his performance. He will present it to his audience in the way he believes it. Sort of "No magic here, I'm just realy realy skilled".

I think that for the first time, we're actually at the crux of our actual disagreement:

Does a performer have to actually belive in magic to present it well, and, in fact, to present it as magic?

My answer to that question is no, and I imagine yours is yes. I WOULD say, however, that a good magician must empathize with the audience, understand how they're perceiving what's being done, recognize what the audience will sensorily perceive, how they're interpret those perceptions, etc. And any magician who doesn't recognize how the audience will interpret a performance, or who doesn't engage the audience, will, in fact, be doing nothing more than displaying technical skill, and that's a far cry from a bona fide, let alone GOOD, performance of the art of magic. But no, I don't think it's an absolute requirement that the magician himself believe it, and I think we could find magicians whom we would both agree are outstanding at what they do, but who don't themselves "believe" it as magic (in the way the audience perceives "magic").

But please don't think that because I do, admittedly, have a "death grip" on the notion of empirical reality, that means I don't appreciate what I do, or what other magicians do. I love performing magic, watching good magic, thinking about magic, etc. And when I watch magicians, I watch as a layman, not as a technically-minded analyst breaking down the mechanics of the performance. I agree completely with you that it's not about the "trick."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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