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Eric Jones
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While we are on the topic of Geir, I've been a big fan of his creativity since I first was sent his Flash Pop Out Coin Production from another website. He's got highly visual work that sets him apart from most of us...He's got great chops man....
“We're two tigers away from an act in Vegas.” Greg House M.D.
<BR>
<BR>http://www.ericjonesmagic.com
Shikina
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Jonathan, I think that everybody here wishes to encourage creative performers to keep doing what they do best: creating magic. However, I feel like the magic community sometimes goes overboard in assigning proprietary status to moves and routines. I learned Eddie Fechter's "Be Honest" from another magician when I was first getting into magic. Though I've never bought a book, or DVD from Mr. Fechter, I continue to perform it. Am I a theif? You may consider me as such, but trust me that I sleep well at night. How much worse off would the world of music be had there been no concept of a "standard" or "traditional" song? How many rock guitarists have played the songs, and even in the style of the performers who preceeded them? Tons- and rock music has thrived because of it.

Daegs, while we all respect your committment to integrity, your response to JokersWild borders on the hysterical. Furthermore, I don't believe that you have deduced the method from every well produced demo video you've ever seen. And if you are able to figure out a method for any given video- use it! Perhaps your arrived at method is different from the original. Are you suggesting that you need to pay "the creator" just so you can find out? I buy videos all the time for moves and tricks whose workings I already understand because when someone puts together concise explanations, with attention to subtleties and details, that creates value that I'm willing to pay for. My point is that I pay for value: not strictly methods.

As for the argument that this discourages people to put out demo videos- I don't buy it. If your effect can be totally deduced from watching the demo- I'm willing to bet that either other magi have thought of that same effect, or your trick just isn't that convincing. Besides- every magician that ever made a demo video made more money on his product than those that didn't. Why else would Penguin make a demo for everything? I've seen creators on this forum announce that they wouldn't put out a video to try and prevent theivery. Allright, but on some level I relate to that the same way I do to "annonymous sources" in a newspaper article. Your anonymity might be preserving some great secret. Or you might also be full of it and posting a demo would expose as much.

If you want to talk about people who are taking advantage, why not discuss the magical creators who choose to put out 12 effects on three dvds and charge 100 dollars for the honor?
Daegs
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Quote:
And if you are able to figure out a method for any given video- use it! Perhaps your arrived at method is different from the original. Are you suggesting that you need to pay "the creator" just so you can find out?

Whether my method was the same or not is irrevelent, it would still be stealing to use any method I derived after watching XXX video without buying it or getting permission to use it.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that you need to pay "the creator" just so you can find out?


No, I'm suggesting we pay the creator because he is the one that created it!!! If you profit from his creation by performing it and don't buy it from him, then you are stealing his creation.

Quote:
If your effect can be totally deduced from watching the demo- I'm willing to bet that either other magi have thought of that same effect, or your trick just isn't that convincing.

This is crazy... some of the best magic effects use a simple sleight or principle that is known to magicians... if you *actually* choose what to buy based on whether it can be figured out by yourself (a magician), than I propose you aren't the best magician you could be, because you are choosing effects which fool yourself instead of the audience. This line of thinking is crazy as many effects that might fool me end up being terrible for laymen because they were created for two different purposes (fooling magicians or entertaining laymen).


Quote:
Besides- every magician that ever made a demo video made more money on his product than those that didn't.

Ok, lets please make a easy analogy that is non-magical:

Product maker has 2 options when building his product. Option A: Will give him decent sales, but option B will double his profits but as a side effect, it will cause a large group of people to steal his products.

Choosing option B would be the better *buisness* option and perfectly ethical as long as the only person getting stolen from was himself, however do you think the police are going to let the people that stole the software go because the creator made a smart buisness decision?

It doesn't matter one bit whether the creator profits more from getting stolen from or not, what matters is whether or not something was stolen.

It is not ok to steal from someone just because they make a little money from the option of letting you steal it.. It is still wrong!!!


if you want to discuss the actual isue of stealing IP from creators and why or why not you agree/disagree with it, then fine by me, but don't try to justify your unethical *thievery* by claiming the creator profits from making demo availible.


Also, comparing magic to music is a faulty analogy and very off-point. Magic is a small community that is lucky to see a small number of sales(compared to many other hobbies/industries), the magic is actually put out by the creator, and the creators are not "getting rich" off releasing magic.

These are people with kids to feed and that spend years working on routines and drop a large amount to just get their product filmed, published, advertised, ect to the magic community. And stealing from them is not right.
Shikina
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Daegs, I'm interested in what you would say to Jim Cellini, who in his wonderful dvd "Magic That Can Be Performed Anywhere" does a trick that is a variation of Fred Kaps' Coin and Handkerchief routine. He descirbes seeing Mr. Kaps perform this 'miracle' years earlier and deciding right there and then that he had to figure out a method to create the same effect. What Mr. Cellini ended up doing, namely figuring out a method; perfecting that method; and ultimately releasing it, has HELPED MAGIC!!! (you're not the only one who can use multiple exclamation points you know Smile I don't believe he asked Mr. Kaps' permission, nor do I imagine that he's giving proceeds to the Kaps estate (I'm only guessing here). Calling someone who acts in this fashion a thief is misguided.

What if tomorrow I were to see a fellow magician on the streets performing a great ambitious routine, wherein he does a cool new twist on a common move to execute a heightened effect? I can't incorporate it? I have to ask his permission and pay him? What if I can't find him? Then I can never play around with and try to improve upon the thing that I saw? Please.

I'm sure everybody supports your desire to protect the community at large. But you're really picking your battles unwisely by hurling epithets at hobbyists trying to recreate something that pleased them. And FYI, my music analogy was originally going to be about jazz musicians. Countless performers in that musical tradition speak openly of 'aping' their favorite performers' styles. These musicians also live and work in a small community of people who don't "get rich". I find the analogy quite fitting. If the idea of calling Miles Davis a thief sounds ludicrous- why does calling JokersWild one any better?
dramafiji
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Has anyone mentioned that the move in the video isn't original nor is it credited to the creator? Would anyone consider that stealing?
Daegs
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I'm not going to get into what xxx person has done with yyy's trick on zzz's occasion, but I'll say these 2 things:

1: No one is above ethical behavior or exempt from being a thief. I don't know the exact details of the situation, but if Jim Cellini or Slydini himself saw someone perform an unpublished bit or completely original effect and then without talking to the perform published it, then yes they would be even worse than thieves.

2: I'm willing to admit there are gray area's. I believe that working on something that inspires you is a COMPLETELY different thing than a newbie that see's a demo and steals the routine. I'm sure that Cellini put forth great time and effort to come up with his version of the effect and while again I don't know the details of how kaps version is different than others or if that difference is shown in Cellini's, but as with the T&R debate and kenner's work, I do believe there is a difference between being inspired by a routine and spending a lot of time and effort on improving/personalizing the inspiration, and people who see perform an effect and think how they want to do that effect but don't want to buy it, so they steal it.

Quote:
What if tomorrow I were to see a fellow magician on the streets performing a great ambitious routine, wherein he does a cool new twist on a common move to execute a heightened effect? I can't incorporate it? I have to ask his permission and pay him? What if I can't find him? Then I can never play around with and try to improve upon the thing that I saw?


Yup... tough luck.

No one said the world was fair, and just because you don't have the drive to respect the creator, it does not give you the right to steal his stuff.

You wouldn't really have to pay him though, just about EVERY magician I've met are nice fellows and if you are truly interested in a plot, effect or method that they have, if you ask nicely they are almost always more than willing to not only let you but work with you on it.

Getting permission IS NOT HARD. A Pm, an email, a phonecall, a letter or a short talk at a convention or performance venue is all it takes... people whine like it is impossible or it will hurt them physically, but all it takes is a couple second usually.

And yes, if the creator does not wish to share than tough luck, you are NOT entitled to rip him off because he doesn't want to share.

Also it would not hurt magic... I'd propose that if the magic society could respect creators and not rip them off, than overall magic would be a much better, vibrant art than it is, enough to overcome any of these fringe cases of a twist that the creator doesn't want released... you talk about the harm that might come from this one move that he doesn't want to share, but what about all the new and original stuff that would be published right now if we could be sure that it wouldnt be ripped off and would be credited correctly and such?

Quote:
Has anyone mentioned that the move in the video isn't original nor is it credited to the creator? Would anyone consider that stealing?


First off there is a difference to whether something is stealing, and whether someone thought they were stealing at the time they stole it.

This means that if you see a demo and then steal the material thinking that the demo was the original creator, and then later find out it is a public domain type effect, THEN YOU STILL STOLE IT. Perhaps you can now, with the knowledge its an old classic, still perform it, but that doesn't change that the initial stealing was wrong.

if you'll forgive a quote from law and order(tv show), there was a situation where a man shot another man that was dead, but the shooter believed he was only sleeping. The man, in his mind, commited murder even though he *really* didn't.... this is similer to this situation, if you think it wasn't availible to everyone and original to the creator and then stole it, than what you did was wrong and stealing.
Marco S.
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Your replies are getting more and more ridiculous. Read it yourself and admit you cannot be serious, especially your "tough luck" comment is unrealistic and childish.
Marco S.
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P.S. Phedon`s comment is straight to the point.
mystre71
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Quote:
What if tomorrow I were to see a fellow magician on the streets performing a great ambitious routine, wherein he does a cool new twist on a common move to execute a heightened effect? I can't incorporate it? I have to ask his permission and pay him? What if I can't find him? Then I can never play around with and try to improve upon the thing that I saw?

Yup... tough luck.

No one said the world was fair, and just because you don't have the drive to respect the creator, it does not give you the right to steal his stuff.


Have to agree with Daegs on this one. If someone came up with a great twist on something, they might not want others performing it for the simple reason it makes them different from everyone else.

I remember watching a John Carney video and a few times on the video he warned the viewer not to take his gags or bits of business, this was a performance only video (Up close and far away). Later I picked up another video of his and he performed everything in a very boring manner without any jokes, gags or bits of business. why do you think this is? I'm thinking it was because other were taking his stuff.

Also on Steve Bedwell's video he performs a card routine, that he later says, many years ago, he saw Mike Close perform a similar effect and he (Steve) wanted to use it, but had to wait until Mike published it.

Magic is about secrects, and if a magician doesn't want to share his secrets, then that should be respected, esp. by other magicians.

Best,
Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
Marco S.
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This is ridiculous. You know a certain move and how it is done and then you go buy it just to be able to do this? If you did this in everyday life with things you see, you would be broke. By the way, how come everybody wants to tell us how morally good they are, when everybody else knows they are just hypocrites? I don`t believe a word of what Daegs said or what you say, Joe.
Maybe the first baseball players didn`t want their moves to be copied, then you tell me it would be OK if nobody was playing baseball today? Give me a break. All you people live in a wonderland. Maybe you can persuade kindergaten kids with your stories, not me!
mystre71
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RE:I don`t believe a word of what Daegs said or what you say, Joe.

Marco you can purchase John's videos here http://www.carneymagic.com/books.htm and see it for yourself.

If you track down Steve Bedwells "M.D. not Required" you'll see what I stated above is all true.

Best,
Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
Daegs
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Marco, look from other threads its obvious you live in a fantasy world where no one has any morals and they are all as unethical as you, and that somehow justifies you stealing, but that isn't the case in reality so please come on.

I'll say this again over and over:

Just because others do a bad act DOES NOT give you the right to also perform the same bad act.


We live in a world with many murders happening every day, that does not make murdering right.

We live in a world with many people stealing all kinds of things, that does not make stealing right.

So please, don't give me this "others do it so its ok" bull that you keep trying to spread, because it isn't true or logical(and certainly not ethical).

Also, please stop comparing a baseball players "moves" with a magicians hard work spent on an effect.

I'm not debating that baseball players don't work on their "moves", but really we are in an economy of secrets and if you want to have a discussion, than talk about the reality of things, not comparing it to XXX society of years back or how other people stealing makes it right to do.

I'm all for having a discussion about it, but I'm tired of the other side falling back on logical fallacies or stonewalling because they can't defend their point with anything rational(perhaps because their pro-stealing side is so irrational to begin with).

I don't understand what is so hard to believe...

I have easily over 24 hours of material THAT I OWN just via old classic cheapie books(and many more than that with all the actual magic books/vid's I own, and I have a cheapo library too so don't claim its b/c of money). Why is it so hard to believe that when choosing my 45 minutes of material or 15 minutes of walkaround that I can't consciously choose to not use other's people's stuff that I don't own?

I mean I can perform an entire act of *just* my own original material, so I still don't understand why you can't believe that when given the multitude of choices between stuff that is mky own, stuff that I own or have permission for, and stuff that I have seen other do but do not own or have permission for, that I can't make the choice to just not include the things I don't have permission to do?!?!?!?!?

Does that really make sense to you that I would *need* to pick out material that is other peoples and then come onto a msg board to claim I don't?????


As far as being broke, *many* of the pro's I know that make a living performing magic and nearly all of the "big timers" stand by respecting creators and not stealing people's stuff, so there goes that theory too....

-daegs
ps I am not on a crusade or anything and I'm not crazy... what I think is crazy is how little people respect creators that they have no problem supporting thievery of their creations on boards or claiming it is the right thing to do. It is a very simple thing to just respect people's IProperty and I don't think its crazy in the least to speak out about it. I'm not saying its the most evil thing you can do, but IT IS WRONG and that needs to be acknowledged, imho.
Marco S.
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Your way of arguing is childish. Read my examples and you know I am right. You cannot compare this to major crimes such as murder, etc. This only disqualifies you here.


Posted: Jan 11, 2006 7:28pm
--------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. I am not too far from the theoretical point of view you have, but then again, we have communism, which also only worked in theory.
Jonathan Townsend
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Ah, but Marco, in our world there is a great shortage of good ideas and certainly no shortage of people. Look at the clear analysis of Malthus and even Swift's concerns about that. Simple supply and demand makes your argument ethical but hardly valid given historical reality. Let's not "disqualify" anyone on the basis of some faulty premises in an argument, okay. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
jmvega
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Good job on the performance jokerswild. If you didn't buy it then you did it just like him. I've figured it out also and sinful for that matter. Their fault for putting up demos. To bad, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Magic is a trade, an art, not somthing to buy. IF that's the case, then any moron with money can buy any effect and were is the art, mystery, and overall fun in that? Too many magicians are concerned with money and don't focus on the quality of the performance and effect. There should be a preservation of the trade, not selling every cool trick for a quick buck. So if you figured it out, good for you! Don't tell the secret! Perform it well and keep it to yourself! If the secret was really that great, even the best magicians wouldn't have figured it out. That's what separates the greats from the rest of us.
Daegs
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Quote:
Their fault for putting up demos.


Woman's fault for going to the party and drinking....
Victims fault for leaving the car unlocked....
The guys fault for going into that bar with an attitude....

Are you really going to claim that because someone did a completely legal and ethical action(putting up a demo) that they are somehow at fault when people steal their things from them???

Quote:
If the secret was really that great, even the best magicians wouldn't have figured it out. That's what separates the greats from the rest of us.


This irks me the most...

What seperates the greats is how they connect with the audience and create wonder/astonishment in them.

*NOT* making some trick that when demo'd can fool magicians...

90% of what I've seen "the great's" do could easily be figured out upon first watch, and the rest could be figured out if it was repeatably viewable with a fixed lens as in a demo.

As far as a quick buck, how much do you think people are really making off their books and effects??? and when considering how many hours creating the effect and spending hours on putting it out and whatnot, how much do you think they make per hr when all is said and done???
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2006-01-08 17:09, JokersWild wrote:
Its a real simple coin through class type of trick. I didn't even have to buy dvd.

Infusion


I don't recall a trick called "infusion", but I am sure the idea goes back to Dave Williamson and was explored by other clever people including Michael Weber.

If you like that idea, you might also like their other works which you can find in their books.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Rindfleisch
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If you are physically around other magicians and you do this you'll start to see people claming up around you. They won't show you the latest thing the thing that's not in print yet.

There is a handful of people I trust that I can show people with not worrying if it's going to get ripped off or they'll take it as there own.

For example when I say, "Last Straw" you have know clue what this is.
But you will very soon!!!
There are some that have already seen the clip (actually only 3) some will be receiving prototypes. But that type of entry in to the inner select is earned. Also, there are many inner selects all around the world but if they see you don't have the ethics and morals, well they won't trust you and they'll clam up (they may even show you the 21 card trick).

It's ok to ask if something is enough of a variation to offer ownership but there’s a degree of humility when this is done. You don't want a reputation of being a thief.

As creators we live by a thin nylon thread that can break very easily. many of us have spent countless hours coming up with effects and routines and to see someone ripping us off is very disheartening. so we live by a rule. Credit is everything! Intellectual property will not stand up in court. It used to be if someone ripped off an inventor no one would buy the knockoff. There is something like this going on right now (maybe more then one issue). Find out the facts and support the true inventor.

When inventing always try to do the research and see if it's been invented before or if there any variation in existence, also add if there was an inspiration that caused you to create the effect. At least if you try you best and it turns out you made a mistake the community may be a little forgiving.

for example, in the new coin dvd I put out I add all the history information during the explantion but also add the information at the end. This is what I mean:

1. Homeward bound (Notes from the Underground lecture Notes 1997)
• Benzais Friction Pass “The Best of Benzais” pg.7
• The pitch click pass is a variation of Lou Gallo’s Gallo Pitch “Richard’s Almanac” Vol.1 No.4 1982
• Muscle pass first appeared in Arthur Buckley’s “Principles and Deceptions” Pg.48 Later Popularized by John Cornilieus
• Rindfleisch Wave Vanish was inspired by David Williamson’s Strike vanish “Williamson’s Wonder” Pg.17
2. Downs would be proud
• Downs Palm
• Rindfleisch Downs click pass
3. Coins on a clothsline
• The original plot was John Ramsey
• Edge Grip first appeared in an effect by Jack Mcmillen called Perplexing Penny “Sphinx February 1929. David Roth Later popularized it with his techniques for Edge grip.
• Curled palm first appeared in “Coin Magic” Pg. 13 and is credited to David Roth . Shigeo Futagawa and Yoshihiko Mutobe have also done some work in this type of concealment.
• This effect is a variation of David Roth’s Hanging Coins “Expert Coin Magic” Pg.82
1. The Vast vanish is similar to The fake and take move by Horace Bennett “The Bennett Touch”
2. Lamont Grip “Coin Creation” 1981 predates Michael Rubinstien’s Angle Palm “Intermediate and Advanced Coin Technique” 1982
3. The Shake Vanish is a collaboration between Ahmed Gastelli and myself . Credits goto Geoffrey Latta for his French Pop which he invented in the mid 70’s
4. Human Copentro (first appeard in Richard Kaufman’s Column Inner workings “Magic Magazine” March 1994)
• This is a variation of the classic Marketed effect by Bob Kline called Copentro
5. Invisible Dust
• Inspired by Tony Slydini’s The Paper Balls in the hat which appeared in “The Magic of Slydini” Pg.37
• Rindfleisch mime vanish which is similar to John Carney’s s a variation of John Carney’s “Fingertip Coin Vanish.” This appeared in Michael Ammar’s book, “The Magic Of Michael Ammar,” Pg.38 this is also a varition of the Nate Leipzig vanish called a coin from hand to hand
6. Ambitious Coin (One Man Issue of “Apocalypse Vol.18 No.5”
• Inspired by Dan Harlan’s Rising Dough which appeared in the “Minotaur Vol.6 No.2”
7. Fidgety Coin
• David Neighbors’ palm change which can be found on his video, “The Coinjurer.” Is used in this routine
• The Chinatown Half gimmick from Johnson Manufacturing
• The second change is David Roth’s palm change which can be found in his book, “Expert Coin Magic.”
• The third phase is a variation of David Roths, “The Original Chinese Coin Assembly” which can be found in “Expert Coin Magic,” pg.65, written by Richard Kaufman.
• This can also be traced to Yank Hoes’s “Sympathetic Coins” from, “The Art of Magic” Written in 1909 by T. Nelson Downs.
8. High Rise Matrix
• This is a variation of David Roths, “The Original Chinese Coin Assembly” which can be found in “Expert Coin Magic,” pg.65, written by Richard Kaufman.
• This can also be traced to Yank Hoes’s “Sympathetic Coins” from, “The Art of Magic” Written in 1909 by T. Nelson Downs.
9. No Gimmick C/S {just the two of us} (First Appeared in Japenese in Ken Kurita’s “Four of a Kind” Periodical it was called Repeat copper silver transposition) (Also appeared in America In the Precursor)
10. Rindfleisch’s Okito coin routine
• Variation of the JG Thompson coin
11. Coin in pen 1,2 & 3
• Variation on David Williamson’s coin in pen (Strike Vanish) Coin from pen cap ”Williamson’s Wonders”
• Newcastle Flick was invented on my tour in England in October 1997 and was introduced at Fecthers convention in April 1998 during a teach a trick session
12. Coin and Card matrix
• This can be traced to Yank Hoes’s “Sympathetic Coins” from, “The Art of Magic” Written in 1909 by T. Nelson Downs.
13. Keep your hand closed
• Inspired By a Lou Lancaster Effect
14. Six Coin Transpo (Coins of Jersey)
• Inspired by Jules Debarros Booklet “Coins Of Ishtar” 1971
15. Hangin Around
• Varient of Shigeo Futagawa Hanging Coins appeared in a video he produced in Japan
16. Disintergrated
• Downs Palm
17. Polished Sterling (First Appeared in print in “Trapdoor One-man Issue 54”)
18. Dust to dust (First appeared in print in “The Minotaur Vol.5 No.4”)
19. JR Coins Across
• Rindfleisch throw pass
• JR Pickup
• Gallo Pitch 2and2
20. Hopping no gaff
• Variation of the marketed effect Hopping Half’s
• The Rindfleisch Turnover
21. GONE ITM
22. Copper Silver Shot Glass Transpo
23. Mind over matter (A marketed effect I put out in 1994)
• Variation of a cs transpostion
24. Coins Through borrowed hands (First Appeared in my one man issue #54 Trapdoor)
25. The Burn Vanish
• This is a variation of a vanish by Shigeo Futagawa that appeared in his great book “introduction to coin magic”pg.37
26. The NewCastle Flick
• Newcastle Flick was invented on my tour in England in October 1997 and was introduced at Fecthers convention in April 1998 during a teach a trick session
27. Joe’s bending coin routine
• The earliest published reference for metal-bending would seem to be a coin-bending effect, "Atomic Penny" in Ben Berger’s “Highlight Magic” 1941


People will help you with the credits you just have to be humble.

Joe Rindfleisch
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pkg
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Hold on a second! a question!

Mindbender (on ellusionist)...i know this trick over a year now, and now that they are selling it, I am not allowed to perform it anymore unless I buy it?!?! (i got the download as a gift)

and for whoever knows the 21 cards trick should not be performing it unless he buys the book? (and please don't under estimate the 21 cards trick...get the book of thoth Smile)
Double posters should be shot!

No really!!
Daegs
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I don't think *anyone* on either side is saying that pkg...

If you recieved it from the people that released it, free or not, and then they started charging for it, you can still use it.

And I don't think anyone is claiming that tricks like the 21 card trick are somehow needing to be bought.
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