Hi, what is the difference between the two, which is best and what can you do more with?

A bit like asking; "Which is better, apples or oranges?"

Bat is 'more powerful,' while Raven (IMHO) is more versitile. This is especially true if you can think outside of the box, or sleeve in this case.

I like the raven better. For the fact that making something change or leave their hand without you touching it is an very stong effect. I would rather be able to do that then have to metal object stick together.

I own the raven, M5, and been using Subterfuge lately...

the fact that I can do whatever the raven does and a WHOLE lot more with Subterfuge (did I mention that I can now vanish coins just like the raven wearing nothing but shorts and topless?)did send the raven to the "not using this anymore".

MY opinion, the Subterfuge is WAY better than the raven (one of the reasons is the no need to wear buttoned tshirts, no p*lls, no fishing lines, no elastic and virtualy NO SETUP, you can do it, literaly, just wearing a pair of boxers!)

and in case you are wondering, the ring IS NOT MAGNETIC *grin*

raven : needs somehow lengthy setup, buttoned t-shirt (which wont allow you to vanish coins off of someone's hand) or long sleeves, limited to vanishing/switching items

Bat: long sleeves 24/7, cannot be done with short sleeves, not strong enough for pk (i prefer the M5, waaaaaaaay stronger and better)

Subterfuge : short sleeves, long sleeves, half naked if you want. a PK tool (yes a tool), a holdout, great for vanishing items, no chinese torture (whoever owns the raven know what I am talking about)....

pm if ya need any more clarifications.

I am unsure as the m-5 is a lot of money for me, I think it is gonna have to be the bat or raven.

Also I thought they both work on the same principle but aparently not, can anyone tell me how the bat works or what principle it works on?

The raven is better. Buy that one.

I think the Eagle is better. LOL. Most people prefer the Raven: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=109

I am now very tempted to d#buy one of the magnets from the site on the link, are these magnets good?