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Ron Giesecke
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I figure that since the Cups and Balls still flourish on the street, that this would be as good a place as any to get this going.

I am wanting to be able to load the Turnip, lemon, and limes that I use, as final loads. I normally do this from my pocket, but I am wanting to be able to throw off the intrepid hand-burner(i.e., show my hand empty, even momentarily as it comes out of the pocket).

I am also wanting to keep the scenario indigenous to my body. Is there an "after the pocket has been visited" way to steal the loads from my person?

This is a legitimate logistical problem for me (a) because I would like to free up that pocket during table hopping, and (b) because an empty hand, aquitting itself after the pocket would be stronger overall.

I am aware of a pool ball, bag/dispenser sort of thing, but am unclear as to their employment. Any word on these would be wonderful as well!

Thanks,

Ron
Kozmo
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cellini showed me a way to load from your table.....the bag that hold the cups....you put the cups in the bag....and then put the load inside the cup from the bottom outside of the bag....you remove the cups leaving the bag on the table with the load inside...its on the outside of the bag but up inside the bag...?...tough to explain.....then when you reveal a load.you take the bag and polish a cup....loading the cup you are polishing....?....do you see what i'm saying?

koz
Ron Giesecke
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I think I see, but I'd have to actually eyeball that one . . .I need to look into Cellini, as his name is everywhere in this forum.

I am preferring, however, a possible way to steal off my body, as opposed to the table, but I would like to strenghten the steals at my table, when on the street, and during mall festivals and such.

Ron
Jim Davis
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Ron, send me a PM.. I have some ideas for you, but I don't care to discuss them openly..
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BroDavid
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There are a couple of reasonable possiblilties that would depend on what you wear while perfroming,

Your loads sound small enough that you certainly ought to be able to load them from somewhere other than a pocket. How about a special modified topit? Or Mumblepeas wonderful Hairnet topit? (I love that idea!) You can pin it in place and work with it and decide whether you ever want to have it sewn. A modification to the Sleeve dropper concept with some topit-like chararacteristics inside your jacket would serve well.

But Whatever you do, I suggest that you do something else in between. If someone is burning your hands on the three loads; make the first one, then use a different move for the second, and you can go back to the first move for the last load, and they will be crosseyed trying to put it together.

Brodavid
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Ron Giesecke
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Bro. David,

Thank you very much!

The cups and balls is my favorite trick, and I feel I perform it as good as anyone, but there is always the one "burner" who will inevitably wind up on my left (I happen to think they postion themselves peripherally on purpose). Once they start with their play by play announcing (body gestures tell me quite a bit), there is really no option than to abort the final loads--unthinkable to me.

It is actually once in a while (usually behind my street table, and only when the entire audience insists on not coming closer to the table, to allow for more intimate byplay. My immediate contact with an otherwise distractable audience is paramount to this routine's success.

If I'm at a banquet table, or in a formal sit down show, I'm never saddled with this problem. I feel this is because I've already established the "relationship" as it were, so defences are down. But once the one person has resigned themselves to my left hand, it is impossible to conceal the large load--or the loosely-held hand that conceals it.

I do feel that perhaps your advice about working out different strategies would be better during these riskier performances. You also seem to have encyclopedic knowledge of topits, and except for Bascomb, I've never even seen one (though I have an old pattern).

Thanks for the great input, and I have PM'ed Diamond Jim as well.

Ron
RandomEffects
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heres a fun one when someone is burning you. after they call you out on the first load simply look at them and show them how you sneak the ball/lemon/midget into the cup. the real trick is make it really obvious because you are showing them this, Once you have their attention get a duplicate load into your hand and do a modified shuttle pass the cup with the cup and your loaded hand. Openly place the load back in your pocket.

If done correctly it will appear that you were showing how to load a cup and then reset it. You are now one step ahead of them and when you produce the load from in the cup you look twice is good because you fooled the Heckeler/Idiot while showing him how you were gonna do it.

On a side note if you have problems with them viewing you from the side then you need to work more on control of your crowd. I dont perform if someone walks into a bad view line of my show, I will stop right in the middle of the trick, get them to move and then continue on.

Mat
Eric Evans
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The far left seems to always be the vulnerable spot. Sometimes this is derived from the way the cups are loaded with the balls, the conventional 'put' leaks to the left. Should that happen, the spec. won't be taken in by the initial effect(s) and will be watching for further subterfuge.

Without going into more detail than I have time for, IF the reason that the hand goes to the pocket is plausible/natural, then it will be all but invisible when it is removed as well. Don't leave the hand in the pocket too long, and don't hold the load in the hand for any time at all while they're both out of the pocket.

Most importantly, it's a lot easier to show a cup empty that isn't, than it is to show a hand empty and then make a steal unnoticed.

Alas, most of the problem is that you're not working from a bag/pouch. I perform the cups and balls all the time surrounded with no problems.

Check out how Charles Bertram made steals from a profonde for evening dress, and please don't wear a dropper on your back, they look horrible.

BTW, check out how long Vernon takes placing the ball into his back pocket...the hand isn't removed from the back pocket until it is needed to take the cup from the other hand.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Ron, when I perform Cylinder and Coins, there is usually someone that starts to stroke their chin, squint their eyes a bit and, remove themselves from the presentation so they can try to figure out what's going on.

My answer to this which you can certainly use in your cups and balls routine (which I hope I get to see before too long) is to draw them into the routine by looking directly at them and asking them questions, pointing to them with your wand, perhaps even having them lift a cup for you.

Any human with the least bit of descency will stop their vigil and revert back to being a spectator. It is just human nature.

One reason is that they now have to think about what they are going to say out loud to a group and in comparison, your covert operations become unimportant. Perhaps an application of this idea will work for you.

That's what I do and so far it seems to work.

Frank

... or have eric evans sell you his bumblebees and they'll be checking them out wondering how they were made and during that time you can load an elephant.

But I get first dibs on the bumblebees!!!

Frank
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Harry Murphy
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Two “non-pocket” routines come to mind. I actually seen both in performance and can attest to the strength of the routine.

The first is Scotty York’s “X Rated Cups and Balls” It is so called because, as Scotty says it, “it can be done nude”! No body loads at all, and yet there are the traditional final loads.

The second routine is Jos Bema’s (Tommy Wonder) Cup and Balls. His thinking uses a very interesting and non-traditional final load.

Both of these and the ideas above will get you brainstorming. I believe that you are going to come up with something unique to you and I am looking forward to you tipping it to us!
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Ron Giesecke
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I've tried to get Jos Bema as the separate manuscript for a long time, but I keep getting my cyber head kicked in on Ebay.

In the new L&L catalog, Tommy wonder is shown in the center collages performing this routine, and I am wondering when those videos are being released. I understand that Louis Falanga has enough film in the can to go literal years without another shoot.

So I'm not holding my breath on that one. . .

I hope that one day, you'll all see me perform this effect. I get wonderful and viceral responses constantly--even from magicians(for the Record, Steve Brooks saw me do it for a news reporter a few weeks ago)
It seems that even the best have recorded the cumbersome subject of flashing, and unwieldy spectators--especially with the cups and balls. I know Gazzo addresses this briefly in his interview with Michael Ammar in the Complete Cups and Balls.

Glad to see I'm not alone. But one thing is for sure: It is possible to be in a room full of magicians, and not find one that has a complete rotuine they use regularly--odd to me, but oh well.

I am writing down all suggestions, even if I'm not addressing them singly here. Thank you all! You're an awesome group!
Danny Hustle
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Quote:
On 2002-11-17 11:44, Ron Giesecke wrote:
I figure that since the Cups and Balls still flourish on the street, that this would be as good a place as any to get this going.

I am wanting to be able to load the Turnip, lemon, and limes that I use, as final loads. I normally do this from my pocket, but I am wanting to be able to throw off the intrepid hand-burner(i.e., show my hand empty, even momentarily as it comes out of the pocket).

I am also wanting to keep the scenario indigenous to my body. Is there an "after the pocket has been visited" way to steal the loads from my person?

This is a legitimate logistical problem for me (a) because I would like to free up that pocket during table hopping, and (b) because an empty hand, aquitting itself after the pocket would be stronger overall.

I am aware of a pool ball, bag/dispenser sort of thing, but am unclear as to their employment. Any word on these would be wonderful as well!

Thanks,

Ron



Ooooo this is a good question.

because I am having a GREAT day today I am going to tip something I shouldn't, I am a bad man, I should be ashamed, but I'm not.


When I first decided to put together a street show, before I knew ANYTHING about busking I came up with a cups and balls routine.

Turns out, it was not very good for the street but, I had a very interesting way of loading the cups.

I wear a long flannel shirt with that has patch pockets on the outside. I had two Ammar style topits sewn into it.

I would put my loads into the topit pockets, two on each side.

As I was doing the routine, it was structured so that the balls would go into my outside pocket (or not go, a two in the hand kind of deal). Anyway, as one hand went into the outside pocket the other would be holding the cup and would grab the edge of the shirt to facilitate ease of me reaching into the outside pocket.

As the hand was in the pocket, it would go through the "topit slit" into the topit , pick up the fruit, place it into the cup, and the pinky would hold it there., As the hand came out of the pocket the other hand would place the loaded cup on the table.

Completely natural, all focus is on the hand coming out of the pocket, which is empty, or carrying a small ball. No lay audience would ever tip to what you are doing. The misdirection is just to great on the unloaded hand.

Working behind a bar this trick floored people. I floored a couple of magicians with it. It is an odd way to load a cup. I've never seen it done by anyone else, but I'm sure it has been. I mean, if you work with a topit in this way, it is glaring obvious.

Today, I use a Gib that Gazzo gave me because I use big loads. But, if I ever have a reason to go back to smaller stuff, or work close up indoors, I'll go back to this method.

Even if it isn't practicle for you, I hope this adds a little something to the conversation.

Best,

Dan-

P.S.

Because of the style of this shirt. The topit is VERY shallow. Maybe 4" high. A fuller topit might make the loading a bit more difficult as you would have to reach up and over the edge of the topit and might make a suspicious movement of the jacket. With the shallow topit it was almost straight through.
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BroDavid
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Danny, That is the kind of thinking that makes Magic - Magical.

That is somewhat the idea I was thinking could get done with a Sleeve dropper type device inside the jacket instead of a full topit. But I love the reach through of the topit slot to load inside the jacket. Good stuff!!!

Ok, here I go again showing my ignorance (as if I have not already done so numerous times....) but what is a "Gib?" Is this a busking name (Gotta get me a busking dictionary....) for a pouch?

Thanks again for more good food to feed the Steet workers mind!

BroDavid
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Kozmo
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if you have someone to your left when you are about to load turn your shoulders to the left ....continue your patter dirrected at the guy to your left and then as you load bring your cup to your pocket instead of the load to the cup and it will be invisable....working the streets you learn to work surrounded.....i dont do cups and balls but i do a chop cup routine with multiple loads....and if i do this they dont see a thing...

koz
Ron Giesecke
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I had no idea this question would become so exponentially interesting.

And is it just me, or is Danny Hustle full of the most interesting information on the planet?

I'm going to sit and visualize that topit thing, and see where I get with it. It sounds incredible--the Topit makes almost more sense as a repository than a vanishing tool.

Ok, I see what you're saying--that is devious!!! What a method! Why'd you give that one out?

What a day. . .
Chris Becker
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Just for the sake of completeness. You can find the topit loading technique in some lecture notes by the German magician Alexander de Cova who also created other very interesting moves for the cups and balls.
Check out his books secrets no.1 & 2 and you'll find tons of superbe stuff.

Best, chris
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Danny Hustle
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Quote:
On 2002-11-18 11:45, BroDavid wrote:
Ok, here I go again showing my ignorance (as if I have not already done so numerous times....) but what is a "Gib?" Is this a busking name (Gotta get me a busking dictionary....) for a pouch?




It should be Gibercer <-- spelled it wrong I know, I know (hangs head in shame).

A Gib is a pouch or apron with pockets like gazzo and Cellini uses. (Our own Eric Evans makes the best ones available. man, they are nice.)

Best,

Dan-
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©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
Harry Murphy
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Ron, Danny is shortening the word Giberciere to Gib. Simply put it is a Poacher’s Pouch. Usually it is a two-pocket apron like affair (or at least it gives the appearance of two pockets). An example (Cellini’s version) can be seen at:

http://www.zauberladen.com/cellini_englisch.html

Mine is a tad larger as the pouches have a bit more front to back depth. While it appears to have two pockets, the leather divider actually has an opening in it to allow me to put something into one pocket and take it out the other. Maybe one day I’ll actually get a photo of it!

I agree with you Danny is a fount of knowledge. I have made dozens of notes from his postings.

Luckily for me, I have Jos’ notes from his 1976 lecture (or was it 77?) at the SAM convention in New York City. I also have his hard to find Cups and Balls book. That is the one that contains three (and only three) routines (including the solid can routine). His work truly affected my thinking on the Cups and Balls.

Christof, I had totally forgotten De Cova’s work! Thank you for the reminder.

There sure has been some good stuff posted on this thread!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
Danny Hustle
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Quote:
On 2002-11-18 13:03, Christof wrote:
Just for the sake of completeness. You cann find the topit loading technique in some lecture notes by the German magician Alexander de Cova you also created other very interesting moves for the cups and balls.
Check out his books secrets no.1 & 2 and you'll find tons of superbe stuff.

Best, chris


Thanks Chris!

I knew there had to be other work on it out there. I'll check it out.

Best,

Dan-
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"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
Ron Giesecke
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Harry,

That Cellini link is cool . . . those are some beautiful cups as well. Thank you.

Also, it is that three routine book I was referencing (Jos Bema). I wish I had it now.

I'll find it again. . .it turns up on ebay every so often.

Thanks again, and I'm making more notes!
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