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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Cheating In The Army With the punch (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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bishthemagish
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Carl Jackson told me this story over a phone conversation several years ago about how card sharps and dice men used to cheat during world war 2.

What they would do was buy several decks mark them with the punch and then toss them into several different bunks all over the camp.

Sooner or later there would be people on the base playing cards - poker and he would sit in. The thing is it wasn’t the sharps deck and they would just sit in and play and take advantage if the deck played with had the marks.

The same method of cheating was used with loaded or shaved dice. Just toss several sets into bunks all over camp. Sooner or later a game of craps was going on and if the cheat got in on it they would pass him the dice.

I found this interesting information.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Slim Price
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You might not know this, but Eddie Fechter was hired by the USO to teach soldiers how to avoid gambler's methods during the second world war..
Slim
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"I will never bitter be, as long as I can laugh at me!"



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prospero
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John Scarne wrote a column on how to avoid being fleeced at cards for Stars and Stripes during the war, too.
card cheat
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Bish,

If the cheats planted percentage dice in other soldiers' bunks then would it not stand to reason that the dice mechanics would not be the only ones with an advantage? What is the point of planting shaved, or otherwise altered, dice if you wouldn't get an edge by doing so?

Just doesn't sound right, man.

CC
Daegs
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1: I don't know if they had them at that time, but mag dice could have seemed legit yet used for cheating purposes by a cheat, correct?

2: If only 2 dice out of a set of 6 or so were altered, then overall when randomlly picking dice for craps it might not be discovered ... however when the cheat sat down he could identify and bring those into play.

I really don't know, but those sound like options...
card cheat
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The point is not the dice that the mechanics roll, it's the dice that the suckers roll. If the story that Bish tells is true, then the dice cheats WERE the suckers.

CC
Kelvin W Sherlock
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They could also leave normal dice lying around, which just happen to match their shaved/loaded dice.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-01-29 03:44, card cheat wrote:
Bish,

If the cheats planted percentage dice in other soldiers' bunks then would it not stand to reason that the dice mechanics would not be the only ones with an advantage? What is the point of planting shaved, or otherwise altered, dice if you wouldn't get an edge by doing so?

Just doesn't sound right, man.

CC

I am not a dice man and have never played any dice game for money. The story was told to me from a card man that made his living with the punch for many years. And it is just a story that I found interesting.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
sodman12
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What is the punch? Cards or dice?
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
card cheat
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The punch is a highly-overrated, under-used, inferior way of marking key cards in a deck that can be read by touch as they are dealt.

It has been said that Scott didn't use the Punch alone in his demo, but relied more heavily on edge work to indicate the location of the key cards.

I have never heard of a top-notch mechanic using the punch under-fire, but the concept of marking key cards is a good one. There are other ways of marking up those cards that is even easier to read and much, much less detectable.

This can yield a very fat edge.

CC
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-01-29 12:07, card cheat wrote:
The punch is a highly-overrated, under-used, inferior way of marking key cards in a deck that can be read by touch as they are dealt.

Are you speaking of magic or card sharking? In magic the punch is a very useful tool that can be used more ways than just using it with a second deal. In fact using it with the second deal is only one advantage to the punch.

Quote:
On 2006-01-29 12:07, card cheat wrote:
It has been said that Scott didn't use the Punch alone in his demo, but relied more heavily on edge work to indicate the location of the key cards.

Being a student of the card work of Walter Scott I thing that he would have used whatever worked for him. He did the punch blindfolded and dealt both poker and bridge hands in front of some very experienced card men.
Quote:
On 2006-01-29 12:07, card cheat wrote:
I have never heard of a top-notch mechanic using the punch under-fire, but the concept of marking key cards is a good one.

I am not really sure what you would call a "TOP NOTCH MECHANIC" is? Because most of them don't put an add in the phone book and advertise themselves as card sharps. I would call Walter Scott a top notch mechanic. In the book the Dai Vernon chronicles he talks about meeting Mr. Shock.

The story of Mr. Shock is an interesting one because he used to cheat at cards in the saloons. The problem was that it was dark and it was hard to see the marks on the deck. So what they did in the story was to break in the saloon - mark the card with the punch and then come back and play.

The point is that you do not have to SEE the marks you FEEL the marks. And in the dark saloon they used the punch to their advantage. The punch has it's use in the history of card sharking!

The late Carl Jackson did not do to bad with the punch. By the way Doc here in the Café seems to like the punch. I think it is a useful tool and one that should have a respected place in the history of card magic and the history of the card sharp!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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sodman12
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Its seems to me someone in a card game would feel it and then know what was going on.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
bishthemagish
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That depends on the people that sit in on the card game and what their education is. And how it is used. What game it is played with. And, How many cards have the work in.

Take the game of spades, two cards are punched. I talk about this in my blog.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Slim Price
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In "Howie Diddits" has anyone seen the disposable punch? It might cost as much as a nickle...
Slim
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"The people who were dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music"
ImpromptuBoy
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Quote:
On 2006-01-31 19:43, sanscan wrote:
In "Howie Diddits" has anyone seen the disposable punch? It might cost as much as a nickle...
Slim


Seriously?
MetalBender
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Hey sanscan, where can I find out more about the disposable punch. That would be something cool to work with. Any more info?
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bishthemagish
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There are a lot of things that can be used to mark cards or peg or punch cards for the punch deal. But there is very little information about it that has been published.

Most card cheats and magicians use the second deal with the punch. In the book Phantoms of the card table it was written that Walter Scott said that even when using the punch it was still a hard way to make a living playing cards. Even when using the punch with the second deal to gain an advantage. He said something like -you could feel the pegs and deal seconds all night and still not get the hand.

That is the problem of dealing seconds and using the punch and sand work with a deck. It is an advantage but the hand is not a guarantee.

That is what makes using the punch with the cull such a step forward - the hand is guaranteed. Depending on what cards have the work in you can get two of a kind - three of a kind to the bottom when you would want them.

I often wonder using it in a game like spades. Anytime you want you can get the ace of spades and the two of spades and bring them to the top or the bottom and then second deal or bottom deal them to a friend or to yourself to get half the pot when you want it.

I have gotten a lot of strange e-mail from magicians asking why would you want to rig a deck up when you can do magic without the punch. I think the point is that the audience doesn't know and doesn't really care if the deck is rigged. It doesn't matter as far as the entertainment is concerned.

Also using the punch and things like it IS a tool that real card sharps have used in the past and it IS a part of magic and card sharp history. So using it for magic in card sharp routines IS using a tool that the card sharp used. Even though the audience is not aware of it. They are being shown a real cheating method and it fly’s above them undetected.

I think that is very cool.
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Paul H
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Hi Card Cheat,

I use the punch exclusively for gambling demo's these days but I own a portable punch made by Gazzo. Attached to a finger under a plaster, it punches the cards in a subtle way that is very difficult to detect. Hell, its difficult enough for me to feel when I put the work in. I know Doc uses this system to great effect when engaging in advantage play so it does have utility in certain games. Glenn has adapted the punch in a highly original way for overhand shuffle culling that I suspect could also be adapted for advantage play if one was so inclined. I still do feel that Walter Scott's edge work is a bit of a mystery. When I have experimented with sanding the edges, the edge frays and the work becomes painfully obvious. To top it off, the edge soon gets dirty making it even more obvious. Still, I'd love to know your system for marking up the cards, but I guess I'll have to wait for your memoirs.

Best Wishes,

Paul H
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-03-11 10:41, Paul H wrote:
Glenn has adapted the punch in a highly original way for overhand shuffle culling that I suspect could also be adapted for advantage play if one was so inclined.

Best Wishes,

Paul H

Hi Paul H.

Ron Kaye who is a magician that used to know Ed Marlo, Clark Crandall and Carmen DA Mico back in the early Marlo Chicago days said this about my punch cull...

Ron Kaye said - "He (Glenn Bishop) starts off the DVD with a request, and rightly so, that you do not use the information for cheating at cards. The reason you should not buy this DVD is because the material is so strong for misuse at the "friendly" poker game with very minor modifications."

(Glenn Bishop)
The interesting thing about all this is that not many magicians seem to use the punch or even know what a punch deck is. Before producing the DVD I did I did a thread that asked if people used the punch right here in the Café. This thread was not very long as few admitted to using this classic card sharp tool.

I tried to get a thread talking about the punch on the genii forum and once again no one seemed to want to talk about it.

Here is another quote from Ron Kaye - "Here is why you are probably going to buy this DVD no matter what I say. If I asked you to look over your card magic collection and list those books or DVD's or cocktail napkin notes you would consider "The Real Work," how long would your list be? I've got so much stuff I trip over it, but I can count on the fingers of one hand monster card work I consider the real work-- and three of those items were shown to me in person or were "private" manuscripts you could only buy from the individual creator. (God rest your soul, Eddie.)

Everyone knows if you want the best on mnemonics, you go to Harry Lorayne. No question. If you want the best on the riffle shuffle, you go to Marlo's trilogy on Riffle Shuffle Systems. And if you want the best on the punch deal, on the punch deck, you can now go to Bishop's Punch Deck Pro DVD."

(Glenn Bishop)
This idea I gave away on my DVD-4 I would have gladly paid over a grand for the method when I was starting out in card sharp magic. Because it is the real work on the punch and not only that it does take the punch into a new and different direction. I have used this idea for over ten years at shows and even in a few shows I did at the Magic Castle and the funny thing was that no one had any idea I was using the punch.

As I said before the punch is an interesting card sharp tool that has a place in both magic and card sharp history.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
bishthemagish
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I posted this above in the magic café not to brag but to point out that I think that some magicians on the way up and the magicians just getting into magic and just started to learn magic often talk like they have been experts for many years. Magic seems to be the only theater art and I question the word art often, where a lot of magicians start off in magic as experts. Many people just getting into magic seem to want the magic world to think that they have been doing magic for years.

When reading a lot of posts I often think about the ZEN story about the master and the student and a cup of tea.

The master is trying to teach the student something that will help them in life and the student keeps interrupting and telling the master his own personal ideas and his own personal experience. Then the master picks up the tea pot and pours a cup of tea for the student. And overfills the cup.

The student cry’s out that his tea cup is overfilling with tea.

Then the master says - first you must empty your cup before you can try MY CUP OF TEA!

I often see this in magic and this is the rub I find the most interesting. Because magic is easier to learn than ever before. We have DVD’s with great products and books and ideas with things on them that are available to anyone that wants to buy them. I stated above that I would have paid a grand for the information on my Punch deck DVD. I would have. The reason is that what is on the DVD is the real work. Back when I was starting out there was almost nothing published or very little about culling cards for magic.

Back when information about Walter Scott was written up by Eddie McGuire and the book Phantom of the card table was just a manuscript. It was rumored that the manuscript was sold by Eddie McGuire for $50.00 to $100.00 per manuscript. The interesting thing about that time was that Walter Scott did have a history of magic and he did do his punch work at a magic convention. This is written about in the book Phantoms of the card table. And what I find interesting is that magicians did not understand or see the value of what Walter Scott could do with the punch - way back then.

They did not seem to notice the “Real Work” when Walter Scott performed it at a magic convention. And found themselves more interested in the Gossip of if Walter Scott was a real card sharp or not and what was the best method of doing the strike or hit second deal. A new move for magic at the time and there was even an argument between the magicians as to who wrote it up first. This was talked about when the manuscript was published in the Linking Ring and is the back part of the booklet Phantom of the card table.

Just look at some of the great DVD products and books that are out today by people like Bill Malone, Jimmy Cards Molinari, Vinny the Godfather, Lennart Green, Al Schneider, Harry Lorayne, Ed Marlo, Dai Vernon, Andrew Wimhurst and many others.

I think that it is important to remember how easy it is to get and learn magic. But not only magic. There is a lot more “Great Stuff” out there in magic than there is “Junk Stuff”.

Magic is also something that should give magicians pleasure as well as the audience.

Just some thoughts.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
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