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Kevvy Special user 702 Posts |
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These are not statements of opinion - such as "I don't care for this deck" - but statements about the deck itself which are not grounded in fact. If you have not used the deck, you cannot say laypeople will notice the marks. You are just guessing. Nothing more. And that, Kevvy, is unfair to the creator. "I don't care for the deck" because I don't like the markings. I've had first hand experience with a deck that used a similar system and I did not like it. That might not be sufficient to you, but it is for me. That is my opinion. If you disagree, fine. Purchasing the deck and deciding not to use it based upon my prior exeriences with marked decks is fair. I feel it is unfair to expect someone to use an item they don't care for. Quote:
Lets face it. Lots of guys use this deck and decks very much like it without any problem...so the problem can't be the deck, can it? I've already acknowledged that. But that doesn't make me any more inclined to use it. I agree with James that being comfortable with your performance is important. I wouldn't feel comfortable using this deck in my performance. A lot of people bought Killer Red Caps but felt it wasn't good, and chose not to use the effect in performance. Yet, there are others that enjoy performing that effect. Quote:
Further, statements such as I stated you "could", not that you "would". Someone that likes the UMD mentioned in this thread that this happens to him too. Some magicians & mentalists inform the audience that the cards are not marked. Quote:
Truthteller wrote: I don't preface all my views with "My opinion is". However, these are indeed my opinions. Based on my prior experience with marked cards, my opinion is that I don't feel it would be deceptive enough in my routine. Some might prefer the Boris Wild deck markings. Others may feel the Juice deck is the most deceptive. To each, their own. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
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On 2006-04-08 14:34, Kevvy wrote: Kevvy, this has never been about someone being required to use an item they do not care for. It is about someone stating on a magic forum that an item is not deceptive for a layman when that person is only guessing. Apparently you are confused about the definition of an opinion. When you state that the marks are so obvious they will jump out at people, you do not need to state it is your opinion, because that statement is NOT nor ever will be an opinion. It is something it either is true in the real, verifiable world or is not. That statement is NOT an opinion. Laypeople either see the marks in performance, or they do not. Experience has shown to myself and to many others that they do not. While your experience has shown you that YOU saw the marks when looking for them, it does not mean in any way that laypeople will. You GUESS that they will. But that is not what you wrote (see above). What you wrote initially was very different from, "I do not think this will be deceptive enough for my routine." |
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harishjose Special user 932 Posts |
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On 2006-04-08 14:50, truthteller wrote: Oh My God Brad, when did you become the authority on laymen. Lets look at your statement "Laypeople either see the marks in performance, or they do not. Experience has shown to myself and to many others that they do not. While your experience has shown you that YOU saw the marks when looking for them, it does not mean in any way that laypeople will. You GUESS that they will." You GUESS that sofar the laymen (what species or ethnicity they belong to - I don't know)have not seen anything, they will never ever see anything. Is that not your guess? How is that a fact? We have only claims by you and a bunch of other magicians. Do you know what is the population of the world? DO you know how many magicians are there around the world? How is this bunch going to represent the rest of the magicians? That in itself does not sound right. ANd even if anybody got caught, you think anybody will come forward and say "Guys, I got caught." Now lets see the actual scenario. When you perform effects with a marked deck, the spectator never really gets a chance to see the card's back. The only chance he ever gets is when he chooses a card. This is generally in the beginning. He looks at the face of the card, not the back. Now when the effect is over, he might ask to see the cards. But which magician is going to hand his props to be checked? I do not know Kevvy in person. So if Kevvy is not a pro, does not that make him an amateur. And is he a layman because he is not a pro? Then if he saw the markings, does that not count. And going on with your definition of opinion. "Apparently you are confused about the definition of an opinion. When you state that the marks are so obvious they will jump out at people, you do not need to state it is your opinion, because that statement is NOT nor ever will be an opinion" Then is this just a statement, made of words. DOes GOD exist, Mr. Brad? You have any proof? Is that an opinion? Nobody has any proof that God exists. So that becomes a statement right? People will find the markings on the card, if they get a chance to look at it. I am not saying everybody will, but some will. But to not give them a chance is performer's responsibility. Posted: Apr 8, 2006 7:02pm The man asked a straightforward question. See what happened. All in the name of opinions. Red or Blue? Whats better?
To believe is Magic.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Harish, if you actually read what I wrote you will see that I never discounted the possibilty that laypeople will see the marks on these cards - but we have no evidence that they will see the marks on these cards any more than they would any other deck. I believe those comments were on the first page. My issue was with the implacation that these marks were so obvious they would stand out to laymen, which I feel is a complete misrepresentation of reality.
But, to both tear apart and at the same time support your argument, Kevvy was looking for the marks on the UMD. He is familiar with marking techniques. He was familiar with the Boris Wild, and by extension, Ted Lesley decks. He saw the marks. But that in no way means that laypeople WILL see these marks. Could they? Of course. But they COULD also see the TT that stands out to the magician like a red flag. Because Kevvy saw them is no reason to discount the deck for practical performance. Have I been clear enough now? As to your statement about God, we are dealing in that case which is something that must be taken on faith. Until we die, we will never KNOW empirically. Saying that these marks are obvious to laymen is not something that needs to be taken on faith. It can, and has been shown to be false in at least many cases. But you are right, audience management is key - as is trick construction. Given these two handled properly I contend that almost ANY deck of marked cards will fly. But for Kevvy to say the opposite, based on his looking for and finding a mark, is fallacious. So, I think, Harish, we are actually in agreement. If you look for the marks, and know what to look for, you will find them. In performance, laypeople are not afforded this chance. Brad |
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Kevvy Special user 702 Posts |
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On 2006-04-08 14:50, truthteller wrote: Geez, now you are splitting hairs about the definition of opinions? No, you are confused about the definition of an opinion. Click on this link to discover how confused you are: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion As the definition on that site states, an opinion is a belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. Harishjoe made some good points too. Quote:
What you wrote initially was very different from, "I do not think this will be deceptive enough for my routine." This deck is not deceptive enough for my taste. Period. You state the following: Quote:
Laypeople either see the marks in performance, or they do not. Yet you later post this in your reply to Harishjoe: Quote:
But that in no way means that laypeople WILL see these marks. Could they? Of course. ...I agree that they could see the marks. I prefer a deck that will minimize that possibility. In fact, I may use a Juice deck eventually. They could see the Juice markings, but I feel it is less likely |
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harishjose Special user 932 Posts |
Mr. Brad,
Your usage of words does not make everything sound "Absolute". You sound as if you are the authority in whatever you state. You insert statements like "You are wrong", "That is not right" and correct other people. I, for one, found this rude and arrogant. Now I don't have any facts or proofs for this, as I don't know you in real life. that's my opinion, and no that is not a statement. Its my Opinion. "Saying that these marks are obvious to laymen is not something that needs to be taken on faith. It can, and has been shown to be false in at least many cases. " Many cases is not equal to All the cases. What you are talking is the tunnel vision you have. Mr. Brad, every weekday I drive my car to work. I have not been in an accident (thanks to God's grace). Now does that mean that I will never have an accident ever? Kevvy stated his opinion. You stated yours. don't expect him to accept yours. ATLEAST HE DOES NOT SOUND ARROGANT. Now here is a critical question to you, Mr. Brad: "If you in the future get busted with a deck of marked cards, will you become a BELIEVER? WIll you admit that you were WRONG? Will you admit that all you thought and believed to be right was just a bunch of *&*^^&^?"
To believe is Magic.
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Kevvy Special user 702 Posts |
Thanks, Harishjoe.
Other posters have disagreed with me about this deck but they weren't rude about it. I'm hoping that Brad's reply won't be condescending and we can finally put this to rest and move on. We have both stated and restated our points and we obviously won't agree. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Harish, if I used the UMD and found myself getting caught with it, and it wasn't through some ineptitude on my part, then yes I would have to change my belief.
But you and Kevvy are still missing the point. SO I will use your car crash analogy. Have you ever been in a car crash? Thankfully, no. Is it possible that you will, yes it is. Is this what Kevvy said? No. He said, essentially, the car is faulty and because of that you will get in a car crash - or more sepcifically, that it is very likely that you will get into a car crash. Yet, he had admitted to not haven actually taken that car on the road NOR in knowing anyone who drives said car who regularly gets into crashes. He is guessing that the car will get into a crash, but presented it as a statement that was more than the mere guess it was. That is my sole problem with the post. He did not say, I fear that the car is faulty and it might get into a crash. He did not say, initially, that he would prefer a different car because of personal taste. He said, the car is faulty and will get into crashes - or to translate - the marks are obvious and will jump out to laypeople. All cars can get into crashes and ALL marked cards may be detected by laypeople. In that, Harish, we are in agreement. But to say, on a forum intended to give real advice to magicians looking for it, that a car will likely get into a crash when someone has no evidence for it - that is something I felt worth commenting upon. I hope I have, finally, made that clear. Brad |
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Roki Special user London 749 Posts |
Blue
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Jim Reynolds Elite user Special Guest 431 Posts |
For those interested, the ads for UMD in recent Genii magazines show how these cards look with their markings.
That being said, if I were a magician doing card tricks, I would steer clear from any marked deck. A mentalist doing an occasional demonstration with a deck of cards can get away with the most obvious markings IMO. |
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Kevvy Special user 702 Posts |
Fair enough, Brad.
As for the car analogy; It wouldn't be as if I had never seen said car. In this case, I not only looked at the car, I also looked under the hood (the card case). Whereupon, I noticed something that that would prompt me to say there IS a chance the car would get into an accident. That is basically what I stated in my third post. I would not say "I'm sure the car will get into an accident." I've only used the word "will" once in this entire thread and that was in regards to spectators' intelligence, not the UMD itself. This is my initial post: Quote:
IMHO, the markings on this deck are way too easy to read regardless of the color. That sentence begins with "IMHO" (In my honest opinion) My intent in every post in this thread has been to share my opinion. This is my second post: Quote:
I like the Predictable Card deck a LOT more than the UMD and the Boris Wild deck. The markings on the UMD stand out like a neon sign. The markings on the Boris Wild deck are good, but they are bold compared to the markings on the Predictable Card. Athough I didn't state "The markings on the UMD stand out like a neon sign TO ME, that is what I meant. In fact, I stated the following in my second reply to you: Quote:
The marks on this deck are way too obvious for me. Yes, "would" and "could" have different meanings, but it has been my experience that a lot of people interpret a sentence that begins with "I feel (or "think") as an opinion, even if it is followed by "would". I think you're arguing semantics. However, your points are well taken. |
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Roki Special user London 749 Posts |
I have a radical idea . Why don't people who wish to discuss semantics for several pages just pm there arguments directly to each other rather than doing it in public .
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Because Roki, semantics affect meaning. And if someone's choice of words which are made in public leads to meanings which are erroneous, they should be questioned in public. The lovely thing about the Internet is that one need merely to press the scroll button if they don't wish to read something.
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Kevvy Special user 702 Posts |
My reply to the original poster's question:
Quote:
On 2006-01-28 21:48, Kevvy wrote: This was also my opinion about the deck. My choice of words in that sentence were very clear. (especially the beginning) Interpreting it differently is another story. ...IMHO |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Kevvy,
To beat the horse further, you then went on and made other statements, quoted above. It was those with which I took issue. To summarize even more simply: There is no evidence that because a magician detects the marks on a deck of cards, that laypeople will as well. One does not follow from the other...opinion or otherwise. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I used a marked deck for years before my eyesight betrayed me. I never had one person mention marked cards. We're magicians and they rightly assume we can do things that don't require gamblers methods.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-28 21:48, Kevvy wrote: Thanks for info Kevvy. Candini
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
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e-man Special user HILTON HEAD,SC 880 Posts |
My eyesight isn't what it used to be,Hence this deck is hard for me to read-Period,
However the deck should only be in play long enough for the desired effect.then simply swithed out of play. When you do a book test you don't have them read the book ...Right,Same applies Strictly My opinion Peace "e"
我被烹调
ERIC HELVENSTON |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
I hear ya e-man about the eyesight, Im in the same boat there.
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
Click here for NEW PROMO TRAILER! 90 seconds of pure laughs without a standing ovation! Click here for Magicians Austin Mentalist Performance https://www.facebook.com/AustinMagicians https://www.speakermatch.com/profile/gianicano/ Magicians Company Entertainers in Dallas, TX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8sHW_zVuSc https://about.me/motivationalpublicspeaker |
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
Here, let's start a new discussion:
Lincoln-- The man, or the town car? |
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