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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Debunking for dollar$? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Brian Turntime
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Just a shout out: anyone posting in this forum ever earned money for exposing fake psychics (a redundancy, I know) or other paranormal frauds?

JREF is a non-profit; Andre Kole's work as well: I'm not suggesting this could be a lucrative career-- but surely either a journalist, private investigator, or other concerned individual has sought the help of a pro? James Randi lamented that many of the "scientists" researching paranormal claims fail to make use of those trained in the magical arts, a serious oversight.
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
Bambaladam
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Valentino, Ian Rowland, there are others (in the sense paid for EXPOSURE). I doubt there's any money in debunking per se, unless one works for legal counsels in fraud cases.

/Bamba
David Numen
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Someone once said (it might be John Riggs) in terms of exposure, that there are far more card sharps conning people than con-artist psychics. Does that mean it´s ok to expose card sleights?
jimtron
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Bartlewizard:

Exposure is a complicated topic; most people are in favor of some forms of exposure (if a respected magician exposes secrets in a book or DVD), but against other forms (divulging secrets on Wikipedia). Some complain that Rowland's cold reading book was bad exposure, while Webster's cold reading books aren't. Danny was responding to Jim's post, where he said:
Quote:
There are far more magicians out there "saving" the world from psychics than there are actual psychics (fake or real).


Do you think that's true, or untrue? It's demonstrably true that there are many thousands of psychics out there. I can't think of more than a few magicians who could be described as "saving" the world from psychics.

Also, to back up a bit:
Quote:
However, despite JREF being a non-profit organization, it has proven to be a very lucrative niche for James Randi. Maybe you can start up a church like his and get an army of "those trained in the magical arts" to debunk things like Andre Koles' silly little concept called God – which has no scientific proof.


I have no idea how much money Randi makes, but I doubt he's getting rich from what he does. I would bet that skepical books, like Randi's "The Faith Healers," are not nearly as popular as non-skeptical books about psychic power, astrology, etc. Jim, do you have any evidence that Randi is has a "very lucrative" career? Also, as far as debunking goes, here's a quote from the JREF site:
Quote:
Well, as we've often said, we don't "debunk." We just ask the claimants to prove their claims. PsiTech has consistently refused to submit their claims to a test, so we just ignore them. It appears, from what we see here, that they've decisively debunked themselves....
Ian Rowland
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Quote:
On 2006-02-02 02:45, Bambaladam wrote:
Valentino, Ian Rowland, there are others (in the sense paid for EXPOSURE). I doubt there's any money in debunking per se, unless one works for legal counsels in fraud cases.

/Bamba


Just in case you're new here, a quick note: Bamba often makes this accusation about me here on the Café. It's a sincere accusation, made without malice, and one oft-repeated here on the Café. It's also harmless and well-intentioned (like Bamba herself). The accusation is also just a little tired and adrift of the facts. The facts, if you want them (and there's no reason why you should) are stated at length on my website (ianrowland.com) in the For Magicians Only section. I warn you that that section of my site is a very tedious read, because there was a lot of very tedious misunderstanding to clear up.

The bottom line is that I have nothing to hide, which is one reason why I post here under my real name. Unlike some people.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
bobser
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Just a quick clear up for those reading Ian's post.
I'm sure he isn't having a stab at 'all' those who use a pseudonym.
We who use fictitious names mainly do it for fun more than anything and are only too happy to let any enquirer know exactly who we are.
Rather I feel he was suggesting that 'a' particular person was actually using their nom de plume to hide in 'this particular case'.
Maybe they'll reveal themselves to us.

Bobser (aka: Derren Brown)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Corona Smith
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Thanks for clearing that up Bobser as I was beginning to worry, my pseudonym is a real one which I use for various activities involving the printed word, not hiding its just I'm so good at lots of different things that it is merely an attempt at being humble and diffusing my huge ego.


All the Best, Corona (aka Bono from U2)
bitterman
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I hate people who use pseudonyms, but I love those crazy cut-out cards Ian makes.
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.

Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can.
Bambaladam
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Quote:
On 2006-02-12 08:41, Ian Rowland wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-02-02 02:45, Bambaladam wrote:
Valentino, Ian Rowland, there are others (in the sense paid for EXPOSURE). I doubt there's any money in debunking per se, unless one works for legal counsels in fraud cases.

/Bamba


Just in case you're new here, a quick note: Bamba often makes this accusation about me here on the Café. It's a sincere accusation, made without malice, and one oft-repeated here on the Café. It's also harmless and well-intentioned (like Bamba herself). The accusation is also just a little tired and adrift of the facts. The facts, if you want them (and there's no reason why you should) are stated at length on my website (ianrowland.com) in the For Magicians Only section. I warn you that that section of my site is a very tedious read, because there was a lot of very tedious misunderstanding to clear up.

The bottom line is that I have nothing to hide, which is one reason why I post here under my real name. Unlike some people.


Hi Ian,

I wouldn't say I "often" make "accusations", but there is no malice, that much is right. I don't bring this particular issue up myself anymore, and in this case I think I may have had some reason or other to mention you. It's not really an "accusation" so much as stating a fact, I have seen the "secrets of the psychics" clips, and I assume you were paid for them. Whether or not I am adrift from the facts in bringing them up is actually and truthfully for you to know and me to wonder. I cannot claim to know you and your history as well as you do. I can't come up with a better explanation for the facts as I know them, and I don't think your apology on your website is sufficient to convince me otherwise.

That is all my problem though. I have nothing to hide either, except my real name. I am not "attacking" you the way others have before. I disagree with you on a few issues, and I have my doubts about your version of ancient history. I do, however wish you no ills, and if you would feel better knowing who I am I suggest you pm me. I have sent you private messages in the past on these issues and there is nothing to prevent civility and honesty between us.

Oh, and for what it's worth: I have seen Ian Rowland's performance video, and he comes across as a very likeable and talented performer. Let no other opinion be tied to my name (real or taken). Also, those cards are cool.

All I can recall ever having said is that I disagree that your Cold Reading book is a good beginner's source, and that it conveys a disrespectful attitude to people I feel don't deserve it (and yes I have bought and read it), and that I am not entirely contented with the explanations and apologies regarding the exposure issues. I also disagree with you about where to draw the line between "accusation" and stating a historical fact. I am not accusing you of doing the psychic secrets revealed tv bit, I have seen it and it was you, and I have no reason to believe you did it pro bono (and even so, where does one draw the line between legitimate charity and calculated self-promotion).

The main part where this whole story annoys me today is where the facts keep getting lost. Let's see how long this post stays up, for instance.

Peace,
Bamba
Ian Rowland
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Quote:
On 2006-02-12 15:30, Bambaladam wrote:
Hi Ian,
I wouldn't say I "often" make "accusations", but there is no malice, that much is right. I don't bring this particular issue up myself anymore, and in this case I think I may have had some reason or other to mention you. // Oh, and for what it's worth: I have seen Ian Rowland's performance video, and he comes across as a very likeable and talented performer. Let no other opinion be tied to my name (real or taken). Also, those cards are cool.

Peace,
Bamba

What a genuinely nice and admirable response! Kudos to you Bamba, for what you wrote and the way you wrote it. I apologise for any inadvertent inaccuracies and misrepresentations about you. The only bit you got wrong was saying that I come across as likeable and talented. Everyone knows I'm a thoroughly charmless, disagreeable old grouch and about as entertaining as watching an old sock dry out on a radiator. (If in doubt, ask our friend Mr. Bartle, the expert cold reader.)

Oh, and yes, the parting comment in my previous post about using real names or not wasn't meant as any sort of serious jibe... just a minor tongue-in-cheek comment really. That having been said, OTHER people have emailed me from time to time saying they think it's significant that I post under my real name whereas most of my lovable accusers and detractors choose not to do so... but that's not something I could possibly comment on.

Dear Bamba... I don't use the PM facility here on the Café, but if I could trouble you to email me via my site (assuming the stench of hell-fire upon entering doesn't trouble you TOO much... a clothes peg on the nose might help), then I'll happily correspond privately (and your privacy will be respected... no details will be passed to anyone else). I'm glad you like the weird cards I make. I would happily make a special card for you, based on your initials, as a gift and as a sign that I respect you, I respect our differences, and I respect that I could probably learn a thing or two from you!!

By the way, to anyone who read my previous post on this thread, last time I checked the Magicians Only bit on my website wasn't working properly, even with the correct password. Darn it. I'm on the road at the moment, currently in Kuala Lumpur and shortly due to fly away to Tokyo before getting back to the sunless UK and the Blackpool CONvention. I can't fix this site prob until I get back, but I will. By the way, if you have never visited KL, may I highly recommend it to each and every one of you. It's one of the most stunning cities in the world, and there is SO much to see and do here.

Love'n'peace and all that cool stuff to you all.

- Ian
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
bobser
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Quote:
On 2006-02-13 02:26, Ian Rowland wrote (to Bama):
I would happily make a special card for you, based on your initials, as a gift and as a sign that I respect you, I respect our differences, and I respect that I could probably learn a thing or two from you!!


Come to think of it Ian, I'm pretty sure I've had a couple grievances with your work in the past. Can I have a special card too?
Many thanks.

Bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dr Spektor
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Hmm... if I say I hate everything ya do - can I have 3 cards Smile?!?!!?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
bitterman
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NO FAIR! I brought up the WOW cards first! What a gyp!
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.

Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can.
Jon Hackett
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I have been asked to take part in a psychological experiment at a local universaty after performing there.

I fully intend on going as they want me to help set some fo the parameters for testing as a person with insgith as to 'what actually happens' but they are using me as a measuring stick as the apparently believe in the abilitys of pyscholigical readings and suggestion.

I have a slight issue with it however as they will pitt me against real psychics and I hope this doesn't mean I will expose anybody who doesn't want to face such 'exile' in a way I spose.

But I think that it will be a genuinely good think, who knows could lead to a Banachek type affair.

Jon Hackett
x
It is not the brains that matter most, but that which guides them -- the character, the heart, generous qualities and progressive ideas. Doystoyevsky
Magical Lady
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Quote:
On 2006-02-13 17:56, Dr Spektor wrote:
Hmm... if I say I hate everything ya do - can I have 3 cards Smile?!?!!?




I sort of doubt it somehow Bruce *grin*

But just in case you do? I hereby claim one of your three! Smile

Best,

*Magical Lady*
Dr Spektor
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Hi ML! How about we start the "We Will hate Ian for Cards" sandwich board brigade and stand in front of his house Smile???

No doubt we will get cards - but probably razor-tipped and tossed boomerang style at our necks Smile...

By the way, Ian is aces in my book! (Damn, there go the cards....)

As for Cold Reading exposed - it has already been published on to death since the 1940s in academic journals - hey, where do you think the "Classic Reading" came from? Also, as many say, the book is not for beginners as it doesn't teach you exactly how to do it - well, there ya go - it is because those who already are familiar with it with know what to do... and how many non-magicians actually go buy this book?

But it seems this revolves more around the tv spot I never saw - so can't comment on that!

B
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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