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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Code of ethics... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kregg
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The manager was right, welcome to the world of competition. Only. it looks like his boy lost!
POOF!
tntjr
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It's pretty ugly, but I agree w/gman. It's business. Think about all the marketing you received in the form of email, snail mail, telemarketing and soliciting door to door. Just because you use a particular auto insurance company, long distance service or what have you, competitors want you to switch to their service.

Personally I would have approached it a bit differently, with more tact and respect, but the reality of it is there is nothing unethical about it. Of course if he's using these opportunities to slam you, that's very unprofessional.
ksalaz1
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Alym,

Sorry to hear this. The guy sounds like a creep. And his manager a Ghoul. The upside of it is, by him doing this, the restaurant was forced to define it's position and say, "you're our man". Perhaps it put to rest questions they might have had about, could we get a better guy, etc. When they see a moron come in, then they realize they have a good deal with you.


Ken
"Master of the Obvious"
wol
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As the ysay this is show business! You cant have one without the other and in business it can get ugly! Buy if you want, I can arrange for a jeep full of guys with baseball bats to go round and have a word with the other guy!?
Keep passing the open windows!
revlovejoy
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One aspect missing from the "just business" equation:

Coke and Pepsi compete with one another in a market where every restaurant has soda available. It's on par with electricity in running a restaurant.

Magic in restaurants is not universal. I'll bet that Alym works restaurants where he is the first magician they ever had. He created the market himself. Maybe some of his gigs had previous magicians, but I would be surprised if they all did.

So basically, this other guy is trying to enter a specific market without doing any real groundwork of his own. Asking to replace a current magician is not groundwork.

A real "competitor" would go to other restaurants similar to the ones Alym works, and pitch them the idea that they need to keep up with the place with the magician, and I can help you with that. If he can't make his case that way, he's certainly not going to be good enough to unseat a working pro already established. And it appears that he is finding that out.

Like others have said, this guy's bad behavior had a siliver lining in that it gave Alym validation on what he's cultivated, and maintains. Next to the dark side, light shines brighter.
Clinton W. Gray
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I am the manager in question. Alym is absolutely correct in his description of the incident with one minor addition. He works in two restuarants of a international chain. I approached the chain head office, who in turn setup meetings with every restaurant in the region. They are interested in using my company to supply ALL the restaurants with a magicians, and Alym feels that his job at a specific venue is threatened. (and rightfully so) In my conversation with him I clarified that if we get the contract we will allow him to work his venues, even though it means a loss to my company commission. Is there any other way I could have handled this?
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Clinton W. Gray
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One last point to address revlovejoy COKE/PEPSI analogy. This chain uses many magicians in it's restaurants across Canada and the US. Alym in not the first magician to work for the chain in this region, in fact that honour belongs to the "other" magician in question. There are 36 restaurants in the province of BC and 11 use magicians. That's the reason I approached head office!! I want all 36 to have magicians... it's better for everybody, including Alym. It's unfortunate that the the chain wanted us to do our presentation in restaurants that were already using magicians. In the cases where I knew there was a magician working, I contacted them BEFORE we visited. However, in Alym's case he has no posters or advertising and I wasn't aware. He does not have a functioning website so I couldn't check there. I think I went above the call of duty to make sure I wasn't hurting others in the business.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Jamie D. Grant
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To the Manager in question,

So let's see if we're all clear on this...

You and your fellow magicians are the members of the same club to which you all pay dues and are, I'm assuming, supposed to be a 'Brotherhood.' You find out that 11 magicians have gone through all due process and, I'm sure, hard work to land their own jobs where they can make their living.

Once you find this out, you approach them and tell them that you are going to contact their head office so that you can try to make money off of them but that it's okay because you'll 'allow' them to keep their jobs. Hey, That sounds great! Are you planning on letting them choose their tricks too? Where can I send you my application?

This is exactly the reason why you've never heard of me and why I've never joined the club. What makes this even more depressing is that I'm a big fan of your President and the fact that he has to deal with this kind of thing makes me sad.

To recap,

Why are you even thinking about approaching any business (regardless of whether you contacted the magicians first or not) that is employing members of your own club? These guys are paying money to get ripped off? And please don't respond by saying it's because you want another 25 magicians hired. If that's the case simply approach the restaurants that don't have magicians yet.

Jamie D. Grant
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
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Clinton W. Gray
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Yes, Jamie you are correct. I know exactly who you are and I know that you have contacted our club's president regarding this matter. In fact it was brought to my attention at the executive meeting. You know all of the details and make an extremely good point. Unfortunately for both myself and Alym, our president (of whom you are a big fan) approached the same chain two months ago with a much larger campaign than mine, and it is my understanding that he has landed the contract. I know that he has had enough interest, that he is contacting other magicians to fulfil the contract. So hopefully Alym and my magician can both maintain their gigs.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Clinton W. Gray
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Quote:
On 2006-02-18 20:44, Jamie D. Grant wrote:

Once you find this out, you approach them and tell them that you are going to contact their head office so that you can try to make money off of them but that it's okay because you'll 'allow' them to keep their jobs. Hey, That sounds great!


To Jamie,

Let me clear up a little confusion. 11 restaurants use magicians in BC. Two use Alym, five use my magician, two use another magician who got the gig through me, and the other two work in Kamloops where I used to do the gigs myself until I moved to Vancouver.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Jamie D. Grant
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Hi,

Thanx for responding. My main concern with this whole situation is the membership issue. It is absolutely baffling to me that members of the same club would try to take each other clients. If I were a member and someone approached me and said, "Holy Smokes! You are the most amazing magician I have ever seen! Do you want to work for us?' The first thing I would ask is:

A) 'Are you using someone already?'

B)'And, if so, who is it?' If it's a fellow member then I reply, 'Thanks for thinking of me but I'm afraid I can't help you.'

Does this make me unsound with regards to business? Not in the least. I can get clients from (in Greater Vancouver) any one of 2 Million people. There's no need for me to encroach on a fellow member.

Jamie D. Grant
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
Kindness takes practice. My TEDx talk
Alym Amlani
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It seems that we've reached some sort of closure on this matter thanks to a mediating third-party...to our manager, I look forward to seeing you at the next meeting.

Sincerely,

Alym Amlani
logic defied
Logic Defied
Clinton W. Gray
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Many thanks to Jamie for the mediation and Alym for addressing this issue head on so that we can get back to just doing magic. Only three weeks into the VP job... I'm still learning.

Sincerely,
Clinton
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Bill Palmer
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The interesting thing about this is that if Alym and the other magician had been members of a performer's union, the magician who approached the manager of the restaurant AND his manager could have been fined by the union and had their membership suspended, if there were a contract involved.

The Musician's Union works this way. Under their rules, if a band or musician is working under contract to a venue, and they are approached by another union band, and the contract is still in effect, i.e. they are not looking for another performer, the person or persons auditioning would be in violation of union regulations. But I'm not aware of any particular union that would cover this, other than, perhaps AGVA. I don't know whether there is such a thing in Canada.
"The Swatter"

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Tony Iacoviello
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Bill:
My thoughts have been, if we as magicians could only have the same union and legislation as as the music industry, a lot of our problems would go away. Then again, some new one's might appear.

Tony
Bill Palmer
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There used to be a group called the Magicians' Guild. I don't think they were ever members of the AFL-CIO, though. I think AGVA is what covers us in the states.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Dean A
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[quote]On 2006-02-15 03:28, Alym Amlani wrote:
Thanks so much folks - and my job is safe

Hi Alym

You will find that most decent clients WILL completely dismiss this sort of behaviour. Congratulations on selecting a reputable establishment to perform your magic in.

This sort of behaviour stinks and such characters NEED to be named.

Dean
Clinton W. Gray
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Quote:
On 2006-03-02 19:48, Dean A wrote:
This sort of behaviour stinks and such characters NEED to be named.
Dean


You are absolutely correct, Dean. Alym should have named me. I'll never learn unless I'm told. Once I found out that this issue was about me, I quickly posted my OWN name, so everyone would know. Once again, the manager of the magician is me, Clinton W. Gray.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Clinton W. Gray
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Quote:
On 2006-03-02 19:48, Dean A wrote:
This sort of behaviour stinks and such characters NEED to be named.
Dean


You are absolutely correct, Dean. Alym should have named me. I'll never learn unless I'm told. Once I found out that this issue was about me, I quickly posted my OWN name, so everyone would know. Once again, the manager of the magician is me, Clinton W. Gray.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC
Dean A
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Clinton

I apologise for missing some posts and have sent you a PM.

D
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