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Paradox Regular user 178 Posts |
Kris:
You're right, it DOES say Bill is a graphic/web designer in his signature. Sorry I missed that. (So much for seeing details!) Bill: Your signature also says "There are no stupid questions - just stupid people asking questions". A very revealing attitude . . . Gene Nielsen |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-23 13:40, Paradox wrote: Paradox, Do you mean to use the word "credibility" instead of "credulity?" I would think "credulity" is something he would want to avoid building up. --Christopher Carter |
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Patrick Redford Inner circle Michigan 1751 Posts |
Thank you Mr. Carter for being a voice of reason.
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Pinky New user Vancouver, Canada 49 Posts |
Bill,
Everyone seems to be telling you that, because you're "unqualified" (according to who???) you shouldn't do it. The sad fact it that they were all "unqualified" at one time too. You were originally trying to find out if what you did was good or bad. This time, it probably wasn't bad, but next time it could be damaging. A little research never hurt anyone AND has the added bonus of making you feel more comfortable talking about such stuff with the spectator/client (which in turn increases the likelyhood that they believe it). Don't stop just because everyone else is telling you you made a mistake. Learn from it, take everyone's advice, forget about the unconstuctive critism, and move on. ------------ Paul, You spoke of how others "not in the know" tend to make generalizations...and then you made one yourself. Just because someone has a "day job", doesn't make them any less of a magician/mentalist/CR/whatever. In fact, I'd have to say that it makes them a BETTER person because they don't have all there eggs in one basket. They bring that outside experience with them, when they perform. -Dave Cross Oh yeah! Did I mention that I'm a Graphic/Web Designer too! Bill, Good looking site too! -Dave Cross
Dave Cross
"The problem with being better than everyone else is that people tend to think you're pretentious." |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-30 18:02, Pinky wrote: Dave, I appreciate your inention of coming to Bill's defense, but the above is a pretty silly statement. The view that a person who makes his entire living from performance would be inferior by virtue of that very fact...It makes my head spin! --Christopher Carter |
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Pinky New user Vancouver, Canada 49 Posts |
Christopher,
What I meant was that when people focus on one thing, it tends to give them "tunnel vision" and an unrealistic view of the world (an unfortunate side-effect of this is usually Elitism). By doing various things outside of the performance arena, people get different perspectives which ASSIST them in making different and, hopefully, better choices for their spectators. I was referring to being a better person in general. Not better than anyone else, but better than what that one person would be if they hadn't done things outside of this "art". People can easily better THEMSELVES simply by being open to any possibilities that may come their way...even if those possibilities aren't magic/mentalism/CR/whatever related. Specializing is good, but don't specialize yourself right out of the market. -Dave Cross Also, Bill's design background brings one more thing that most people wouldn't think of. "Art" is for "Art's" sake. "Design" communicates a message. It's an important distinction that needs to be said. I never refer to what I do as "Art", because I am trying to communicate a message. "Magical Art" makes what we do sound like some sort of "Auto-erotic obsession". I'm sure Bill would also attest to this. Through his design experience he brings an engrained need to communicate something to the audience. This need is something that most performers would have to learn "on the job" and as such, in this case, YES, most FT performers are a step behind in this regard. -Dave Cross
Dave Cross
"The problem with being better than everyone else is that people tend to think you're pretentious." |
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morrison New user 12 Posts |
I have first hand experience of a “real” psychic or “real reader” who took “the time to learn a divination system” and is “qualified”. (all the quotes are taken from other postings under this topic). This young lady told one girl to stop taking the contraceptive pill. And told another girl that, as her boyfriend was away and she lived in an isolated spot in the country, that she should have an affair.
Personally, it strikes me that these young ladies would have been better listening to somebody who was a graphic designer in real life, spouting gobbledegook, rather than a real reader. Furthermore, I have been present when a well practised cold reader (and cold reading has NOTHING to do with spouting generalities) took on genuine psychics in a head to head contest with hard-nosed reporters – and won hands down. Cold reading, properly done, is a powerful psychological technique that gives the client genuine information, backed up by “proof” of abilities beyond our normal ken. I would suggest that it might be an idea to lay off those who are trying their hand at giving their clients a reading. The damage is done, not by the method or the mechanics, but by the person themselves. An individual out to bolster their self image as a special person who has some “strange power” (which, in my experience all “psychics” fall into) will give a wicked reading if they are wicked at the core. A pure soul will give a helpful reading- whether they are a graphic designer or a bus driver. And as for those individuals who charge $300 dollars per sitting to bring messages to grieving relatives and parents (no names – no pack drill) they and their methods should not only be exposed, but they should be publicly hanged. Further, I do not believe that this forum is a place in which this immorality should be supported. For any reasonable individual, gobbledegook wins hands down. |
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Pinky New user Vancouver, Canada 49 Posts |
Morrison,
Well spoken on all accounts. -Dave Cross
Dave Cross
"The problem with being better than everyone else is that people tend to think you're pretentious." |
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Paradox Regular user 178 Posts |
Chris:
Yes, I did mean "credibility" rather than "credulity". My mistake. Sorry. Glad you caught me on this. And. BTW, I spent 35+ years as a draftsman and tool designer, so I know something about being reasonable and rational. Gene Nielsen |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Gene,
That wasn't me being critical, I just wanted to be sure I understood you correctly. From time to time we all use the wrong words, I know I do, and so I was just checking up on your intended meaning. I got added on to somebody else's axe-grinding. --Chris Quote:
On 2002-11-30 18:52, Pinky wrote: I see your point, and generally agree, except that it is entirely inaccurate to think that a full-time professional has no life outside of the craft. We do, in fact, have hobbies and interests, as well as other artistic pursuits besides our mentalism. --Chris |
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Paradox Regular user 178 Posts |
Thanks, Chris:
Oddly enough, I just looked back at that post & it DOES say "credibility". I may have gone back & edited it afterwards. Or did someone else? Is that possible? I'd hate to think that someone else could edit a person's posts??? As far as what I have to say about contacting a "real" psychic who allegedly gave irresponsible advice, that's probably PM stuff. Suffice it to say that I don't agree with the post, but for reasons I'd rather take up privately with the poster thereor. Gene Nielsen |
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Darrin Cook Special user 621 Posts |
I think the vast majority of us agree that each of us should improve to the best of his ability. Learn a system. Sure, we could get by with a Svengali deck, Scotch and soda, brainwave deck, etc., but real satisfaction comes from growing in magic or mentalism.
As for the morality of untrained readings, I think a reading in a casual setting, like for a group of friends at lunch, is harmless. I remember a "fortune teller" at a Halloween carnival at my elementary school when I was a kid. In these settings, people are into the fun and entertainment aspect of the readings. On the other hand, suppose a troubled woman approaches someone she heard does readings. (Many Mexicans, for instance, believe in spirits and spells, and take these things very seriously.) Great harm can be done when readings are given to troubled people. See T. A. Waters' view on the ethics of readings in "Mind, Myth, and Magyk." |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-30 19:01, Pinky wrote: I have no way of knowing what needs Bill might or might not bring to his performance, but when it comes to full time performers, I can't figure out why you feel they would not already have a need to communicate something with the audience. Do you spend a lot of time with performers? What sample are you basing these conclusions on? I've spent my entire adult life in the company of full-time entertainers, and I see exactly the opposite of what you see. --Chris |
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Pinky New user Vancouver, Canada 49 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-30 21:11, christopher carter wrote: Your right. I didn't mean to say that you don't have any outside influences. I was getting overly excited. For this, I appoligize. I just didn't like hearing people saying that someone "shouldn't quit his day job". Criticism should remain positive (I realize I may have taken a wrong turn on this too) and being told not to do something simply because you didn't have adequate knowledge of it wasn't right. Its like being told never to drive simply because you grinded the gears once. Aren't Mentalist short in number as it is...without kicking people before they're given the chance to learn? Quote:
...I can't figure out why you feel they would not already have a need to communicate something with the audience. Do you spend a lot of time with performers? What sample are you basing these conclusions on? I've spent my entire adult life in the company of full-time entertainers, and I see exactly the opposite of what you see. This part goes back to the age old dilemma of "Narrated Magic"; where the performer tells the audience what he's doing as he's doing it. Many of the magicians/metalists/whatever (that I've seen) still do this. Combine that with the fact that I'm incorporating NLP into my presentations to embed positive messages (I've gone so far as to anchor a feeling to a Penny. That way, hopefully, whenever they see a Penny, its like getting a little positive "booster". How often do you see Pennies?). Seeing where I'm trying to go along with where most entertainers (that I've seen) aren't, is disconcerting. Aside from a few close friends, whom I workshop these things with, I wouldn't trust most of the people I've seen to sit the right way on a toilet seat. But, I do try to keep an open mind and I'm glad that the people you surround yourself with are doing a better job of it. -Dave Cross
Dave Cross
"The problem with being better than everyone else is that people tend to think you're pretentious." |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-30 23:21, Pinky wrote: And you say you're not a full time professional? You certainly have the ego for it! --Chris |
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Pinky New user Vancouver, Canada 49 Posts |
I keep wanting to be, but my girlfriend has this thing about me getting a real job.
In all seriousness, I've been there and it made me something I didn't want to be. I was living in a different city at the time and it was a bad market. I had to hustle like a grifter (in the bad sense of the words), but I have been thinking of coming back to it. I'm going to take your post as a compliment, Chris (I actually believe that's what it's meant to be). That's the impression I wanted people to think. Professional even if I'm not a FT Performer. Anyway, enough on this. Back to what this thread was on. Bill, if you're still listening (he's probably not), do what YOU feel is right. None of us can decide for you. -Dave Cross
Dave Cross
"The problem with being better than everyone else is that people tend to think you're pretentious." |
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morrison New user 12 Posts |
Ooops. Somebody PM's me, and for some reason, just as I started to read it, I received the message "Deletion Successful", and it had gone. It looked like an interesting PM, and i wonder if whoever it was would be kind enough to send it again, if possible. Thank you
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petrakos New user 55 Posts |
When I hear people talking about using gobbledygook in readings, I often wonder about their intentions. It seems that whether you're doing CR or using a system, such as astrology - and I've done both - there is a responsibility to the client. Fooling somebody with, for instance, cards is much different than fooling them with advice or statements about their personality or future.
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McCritical Regular user 156 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-25 13:38, Thoughtreader wrote: Personally, I'd suggest Bill learn a tarot system. The Waite system is probably the most familiar....Pictorial Guide can be purchased cheaply and Eden Grey has several books that work well as companion guides to the Waite system. Waite/Smith designed tarot decks are pretty inexpensive (especially for "student" decks that have the meanings printed at the bottom of the cards) and they come in a variety of sizes. If you plan on using the cards for something other than readings, keep in mind that the Universal Waite Tarot Deck is backed with a white border (like a pack of Bikes) while the Rider-Waite Tarot Deck is not (like a pack of Bees). However, why a graphic artist would not already own a Salvadore Dali deck is beyond me... |
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Brash Regular user 149 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-11-30 20:25, morrison wrote: Such a person is no more of a valid reader, in my opinion than those who spout gobbledygook. I'm sure we could find examples of amateur cold-readers who have done similar damage. I can't imagine a knowledgable reader, shut-eye or otherwise giving such advice. Quote:
Personally, it strikes me that these young ladies would have been better listening to somebody who was a graphic designer in real life, spouting gobbledegook, rather than a real reader. Maybe, maybe not. They certainly would have been better off with a better reader. Quote:
Furthermore, I have been present when a well practised cold reader (and cold reading has NOTHING to do with spouting generalities) took on genuine psychics in a head to head contest with hard-nosed reporters – and won hands down. Cold reading, properly done, is a powerful psychological technique that gives the client genuine information, backed up by “proof” of abilities beyond our normal ken. A great deal is made of those cases where a cold-reader manages to be more convincing than a "genuine" psychic. In these circles examples of the opposite are generally dismissed. Quote:
I would suggest that it might be an idea to lay off those who are trying their hand at giving their clients a reading. The damage is done, not by the method or the mechanics, but by the person themselves. Agreed. Quote:
An individual out to bolster their self image as a special person who has some “strange power” (which, in my experience all “psychics” fall into) will give a wicked reading if they are wicked at the core. A pure soul will give a helpful reading- whether they are a graphic designer or a bus driver. Rather broad generalizations, wouldn't you say? Quote:
And as for those individuals who charge $300 dollars per sitting to bring messages to grieving relatives and parents (no names – no pack drill) they and their methods should not only be exposed, but they should be publicly hanged. If they do it fraudulently. Which I personally believe is the case with many "talk to the dead" types. Quote:
Further, I do not believe that this forum is a place in which this immorality should be supported. For any reasonable individual, gobbledegook wins hands down. Which immorality exactly is being supported? Do you suggest it is more moral to pretend to have special insights and spout nonsense than to use an established method of divination? |
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