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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
I've only been to one big magic show and that was recently to David Copperfield.
I noticed that many of the boxes/containers/bases used on the big stage are very non-magical. They look just like magicians boxes instead of everyday stuff. As soon as I see some stainless steel box,platform with a base, etc... my brain completely turns off and I stop admiring what I see. This shouldn't happen. Here's an example. Copperfield, made a duck disappear in a steel/magical kind of box that he took apart before our eyes, and it reappeared in what seems like a "bunny-bucket" or whatever. the disappearance was very ho-hum for me but the re-appearance was great. This is all because of the physical properties of the container. I must not be the only one who thinks.."Gaafffffff" when they see some box like that? Given that technology has advanced so much, why haven't magicians adopted using everyday, familiar containers for all this stuff. it would be much more magical. Instead, I sit there thinking "Give me a box like that and I'll do it too!" While I'm on the subject .. Another example I saw on WGM the other day was the appearance of a woman right on top of a trap'ish door. A little bit of dancing around and the magician walked the lady right back over to the trap'ish door and made her disappear. I thought this was a bad job of showmanship. If he has to use the same trap'ish door he should NOT have had to walk her back over to where the appeared from in the first place. They should have just ended up there. It was kind of like.. "Now to make her disappear again. Oops. Wait a minute. Let's first get her back to the trap door." I think everyone would agree to make sure an act ended in the right spot but what about the boxes, et al? What is the thinking behind the look of these? Frank
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Enigma3613 New user California 61 Posts |
From what I see on television and on many dealer websites is a trend that is moving away from these boxy tricks towards a more open stage with props that look commonplace. I agree that these props help make the magic happen for the audience.
I also remember something I read from a book on conjuring by Henning Nelms that said that every action needs to be motivated before it happens. I agree with this. The magician needs to convey the idea to the audience that the girl could disappear anywhere, but disappeared where shedid because they were "conveniently" there, or because they ended up there for a reason that is obvious to the audience (not because the trap was there).
- Robert Doidge
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Good point, fstarsinic. I know what you're saying. If anyone, DC should be the one to really "normalise" his props as he has the financial backing to do so.
However, the lower budget Magi would find it a little more daunting to undertake this. To be fair,it doesn't help that most illusions and illusion plans out there have a set "look" to them that isn't completely normal to begin with. They look like "illusion props"! Some look like they are giant cousins of the TENYO line of props. Nothing wrong with this per se, just that it does make the magic look like it's being done with that prop.... Fox's exposures have also made the public aware that the equipment onstage is really what's doing the "magic"! They don't even need to know exactly how it does it, they just need to know that it does do it to take away all the "magic" from the Magician onstage, imo.... We as Magicians need to look hard at this issue as it does to a certain degree effect the whole way Magic is and will be perceived by future audiences. Do we want them to think that it's all done by the props or don't we? I don't have the answers btw, just asking the question that needs to be asked.... Thanks for the post fstarsinic. Good one. Another point I have made on a different post, that the reason Blaine's illusions work so well with the public and they attest all that's happening to his magical abilities / endurance is because his illusion props don't look like "illusion props"! Wait a minute you say, what DB ILLUSION PROPS, I didn't see any! Well, my dear Magician, that's my point.... Imo, the ice block, the pole and that window store, where he put his hand through the glass, were all "illusion props" but not as we all are familiar with as "props"! I'm not taking away anything from Blaine as I'm quite sure that he has above average endurance and mental fortitude to attempt those endurance stunts. I just don't believe he was unaided that's all. He made those props, especially the pole which is not an "everyday item" by any means, so why wouldn't he aid himself if for nothing else, just "to err on the side of caution". He uses gaffed cards and coins, why not a gaffed 80-foot pole. The distance he has from the audience while on top of the pole is so much that a gaff wouldn't be seen. Plus, if those two "handle bars" could come out of the pole, what else could "come out of the pole"? You know what I mean...? Sorry to turn this into a "Blaine" topic fstarsinic, but you guys do see my point right? To make the magic "yours", the prop must not detract from it, (if you have to use a visible prop that is). Feel free to disagree.... or not. Hi, it's me again! Just an idea, if you have to use a prop that's looks nothing like an everyday item, maybe the best solution is this. Attest to the fact that the effect IS being done by the prop. Before you flame me, think about it. As an example, the "Stargate" Illusion is a perfect candidate for this presentation. It's supposedly a gateway to a different dimension right? It is not the Magician that's causing objects to appear / disappear / teleport in this illusion. It's the "Stargate" contraption. However,here the Magician can play the role of the "holder of secret knowledge" and that's how he constructed the "Stargate". And apparently only he knows how to operate it, hehe... This isn't a new concept at all. In movies, Sorcerers have been constructing "gateways to the nether world" for ages. Btw, Lord Of The Rings Sorcerers such as Gandalff attest to supernatural powers, albeit evil ones, to the ring. Think about it, mad / evil scientist characters have been builting extraordinary gadgets and the famous "Time Machine" countless of er... times (pun intended). Good movie examples are "The Time Machine" (duhh...), "Back to the Future", "Austin Power's" and the list just goes on. In Disney's "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" TV/Movie series, a new "gadget" was constructed every single episode! The trick is(pun intended again), imo, NOT to make the prop "cheesy/cheap"-looking. It has to look the part of say... a "Time Machine" or as the famous "Spirit Cabinet". (Copperfield brought a part of a house onstage for his version of this, called "Ghost"!). I'm personally adopting this approach to my Magic. That is, one who constructs and uses "paranormal-illusionary-apparatus using secret guarded knowledge". Think about that statement, it does describe "Illusionist" quite well, imo. Sorry for the long post, just wanted y'all to know what I think....
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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a.lien New user Germany 36 Posts |
I think it all depends on your individual taste wether you wanna use props that look "obvious" or you use ordinary looking stuff. I agree with with Pakar in that sense.
To me a good mix of both is the best thing to do. If you wanna make a duck disappear, the most convincing way would probably be by using an ordinary cardboard box which is then ripped apart or or squeesed together instead of using a suspecious looking "prop". Also DC´s bucket with the flaps looked to me kinda fishy because I kept asking myself: If you wanna show a bucket empty, why not using a lid, that comes off completely not just halfways. It always looked as if they wanted to show you something, but not all the way! Anyway, bottom line: It depends on the story you create around a "prop". Some should look ordinary, others are supposed to look mysterious. It creates 2 different atmospheres. As long as the props are made well and deceptive it´s a simply matter of personal taste, I believe! Alex |
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illusion27002700 New user 8 Posts |
The above poster is right, in that it's all a matter of taste. Tell me how many people would pay a lot of money to see unattractive equipment. The silver and black combo look is needed. Everyone knows that they are coming to a magic show. Everyone knows you can't make money really appear outta nowhere (why would you be selling tickets for the show). The equipment can look like a box as long as its not too gaudy. Then it's a box...thats all. A chrome rimmed trimmed box. Now if we were to make all the equipment look so normal the show would look drab, trust me. And people don't pay to see drab. If anyone would like to discuss illusions in detail you can pm me at illusion2700@yahoo.co.in.
bye everyone |
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MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
Frank,
Don't forget, you're getting the opinion of mostly magicians here and we're all pretty jaded when it comes to magic and illusions. Some times you look at a prop and say "What the %&!! is that?!" I agree from a magician’s standpoint that the less a prop looks like a prop looks the better, BUT; In reality, magic audiences are there for the fantasy of the magic. Most people LOVE DC's Webster routine and the props don't matter because he has transcended the props with the script and choreography in the skit. As a magician it's hard to take a step back and look away from method and methodology and look at the experience created for the non-magic people. We don't look at movies with great special effects and say, "Aww, that sucks, its just special effects anyway!" I mean we KNOW it's special effects, but we are able to get passed that when the special effects propel the story forward. A magic or illusion show, which is about fooling the audience with boxes and props, but has no story or texture, is much like a movie where the special effects carry it. It can be cool if you like that sort of thing, but beyond that there is nothing to keep the audience engaged other than the puzzle.
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
ALso, remember, this is SHOW BIZ. Part of what we do is make things look SHOWY. Sure, you can do an entire show with cardboard boxes, but I think it would lose something. Liberace could have played in jeans and a t-shirt on a regular old piano ... but he didn't.
In part, I agree ... perhaps some mystery would be better extracted from the audience with ordinary-looking props. But, we would lose some entertainment value in the process. |
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Michael Dustman Inner circle Columbus, Ohio 1220 Posts |
I think, in effect...that is what Coppefield is attempting to do. With the exception of the squeeze box, he has for the most part tried to get rid of the "box concept."
There have been many versions of sawing in half (am I the only one that thinks that the Selbit/Wakeling sawing is still the best and most deceptive out there?) David tried to get rid of the box and cut himself in half with nothing around him. (As hokey as it looked). Even with the Portal vanish, he is over the audience with the illusion of a very thin crane arm. The couch in a plexiglass box. Making a Lincoln Continental Convertible appear with only a drape on stage. He did put the Motorcycle shadow box back in, but I enjoyed the plate appearance opener more. There is a movement to get to the non-box concept slowly but surely. I hope it continues. I think the irony to me is...DC is trying to do away with illusions with boxes by cutting down on the prop and doing it open, or surrounded, etc. Yet he is travelling with more gear and more trucks now than ever before. Chris Kenner was telling me about a year ago, that everything involved in the Lottery and Portal take up 2 trucks alone. And when you stop to think about it (at least what you see on stage) these two tricks are nothing more than a crane, a prediction chest, and a tape recorder. Oh yeah...and a full size Lincoln convertible. |
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Jack Murray Special user St. Petersburg Fl. 773 Posts |
I really don't get it when I hear a magician say "it looks like a magic prop"! It's the same confusion I get whan I hear someone order fish and say, "I don't want it to taste fishy"!
Lay people know it's a "magic show". Do you really think they will think it's "just an ordinary cardboard box" if they see one? They still know there is a trick to it somewhere. The Zig_Zag does NOT look like an ordinary wooden box, nor the Origami or countless other effects, but when performed with class and professionalism, are very entertaining. I don't believe a lay audience EVER walked away from a magic show and said, "all the magic effects looked too magical" I realize there some exceptions, but I say make the props look like what they are...magic props!!!! Jack
Jack Murray
http://www.dream-illusions.com |
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spkrosky New user 89 Posts |
I'm with Jack on this one. I think as magicians we tend to be overly critical about things on stage. The point is, it doesn't matter as long as it entertains. The problem is that most magicians don't focus on entertainment, they focus on magic. Sure, we've seen countless props and read illusion plans and everything kind of looks the same, but to someone who doesn't know the secrets, these props are extremely deceptive! That's why they are used! Plus, one of the fundamental theories of magic is the "suspension of disbelief". Of course everyone knows there's a hidden pocket here or an extra panel there, but as a performer, it is our job to make them not even care --by entertaining them so much they aren't thinking "How'd he do that", but instead, "Wow, that's incredible!"
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Ooooo boy, this is getting interesting now!
Let’s look at it from a different perspective. Back in Professor Hoffman’s day, props and illusions were designed in the prevalent decorative style of the Victorian period -- heavy, ornate, dark, and varnished. It’s the “look” that many of us grew up with (complete with black velvet and gold fringe) and still frequently see in the catalogs. This was consistent with the dress and mannerisms of the day, when audiences generally dressed up to go to a show and the magician of course had to be in formals too. Everything fit together visually; people expected to see this stuff and they saw it. Since then, there has been a steady progression into shows that use props in different styles and from different vendors, without regard to thematic continuity (sorry about the fifty-cent term; I’m a theatrical designer and this is part of our language). Anyway, we’ve all seen the magician in white tie and tails (arguably the most elegant form of dress for a male) using a red-and-yellow Chinese box in one trick, an Art Deco box in another, an Egyptian box in another, a funny-looking bucket in another, and a red velvet, tasseled bag in another. The silks are in every color under the sun, as are the feather flowers. Why is a gentleman in white tie and tails using these things? The only thing that holds it all together is… “It’s a magic show, so that’s how it’s supposed to be.” Nowadays we seem to be in the “steel and base” period of illusion design. The reason a lot of these things look strange is not so much their design – it’s that they’re out of context with the performer and the rest of the show. We don’t know what these boxes are supposed to be, other than magic boxes. But we justify them because they’re tricks and illusions and have to look that way. But those magic boxes don’t have to look like everyday things either; they just need to be thematically consistent with the rest of the show in order to look correct. Take the duck vanish mentioned above, as it could be performed by different characters. Harry Potter or Professor Dumbledor would use one thing, while Merlin would use something different. A 16th century Samurai’s prop would look different from a 16th century Benedictine monk’s. Captain Nemo, Captain Ahab, Captain Bligh, and Captain Kangaroo would all use different things. A Klingon, a Romulan, and a Cardassian would all use totally different props; Commander Data, however, would probably use the standard prop and be perfectly in character. The scenery and props in shows at the level of Lance Burton, DC, and S&R are designed and coordinated by professional designers who work hard to make it all look consistent – just like the scenery, props, and costumes in professional theatre, opera, and the movies. Of course, if the client wants to use the standard duck vanish prop, he usually gets away with it. Last year I caught Steve Wyrick’s show in Vegas, and, as much as I didn’t care for the “industrial grunge” theme, I thought everything fit together thematically. Lance’s show is tied together by his personality, by the design of the theatre itself, and by some of his backdrops. The Marco show in Beverly, MA, is themed after a 1920’s magic show and works very well. Consistency is what makes them work. Those steel boxes are fine, even though they look like magic props, which is what they are. Let’s just find a reason for them to be there, besides “It’s a magic show.”
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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ricker Special user Tampa, FL 914 Posts |
When I did Zig-Zag on a local cable show a few months ago, the host said 'This is just a box', and used him to feel the feet and hands. He was inches away from it and it was truly in disbelief when I did it. Told me after the segment, he still had no idea how he did it, there weren't any 'trap doors' in the box.
This is a home built unit, from the Osborn plans, using 'Harbin' style patter and method. Vid is at http://www.yourmagicman.com |
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David Todd Inner circle 2328 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-09 10:55, georgefl38 wrote: Great post , georgefl38 ! That's a keeper . I hope everyone reads what you have written above about thematic continuity and takes it to heart. Something as simple as making sure all our props are painted in the same color palette and are coordinated with our costumes can make a world of difference . Even if someone has seen a magician use a standard prop like a Genii Tube or a Square Circle before , we should make sure that ours is painted with a unique design or color , so it doesn't look like something that just came off the shelf at the magic shop or an exact duplicate of a prop they saw some other magician use. |
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Kramien New user 9 Posts |
Thank G-- for all those boxes....Stan Kramien
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Thanks georgefl38!
That post of yours is one the best post I've ever read on Illusion Prop Design... Opened my eyes you did... Thanks again!
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
George,
Excellent post. When dealing with kids, they kind of expect a magician to look the part of the classic magician. (The corney props and all) Now illusion shows, that are coordinated with everything is expensive to do, but nice! It would be nice to have a list of credits to display, or the money of DC and Lance Burton, or the theater setting in one location. All this cost lots of money. If one is to develop a show and build the props, and contract the music, and keep with the times, this is the way to go. Those of use who lack youth, can enhance it with dancing girls, but some of us must deal with the body and character we lived with a long time. (Please no wife jokes.)
Dennis Michael
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Georgefl38,
You make some very good points. Either a show has a theme or it doesn't. If nothing else, from curtain up until curtain closes each time, things should fit together some way. I don't agree that the people on stage should be dressed like the people in the audience. That would be as out of place as the patient and doctor being dressed the same in the operating room. I'm not sure that you meant it that way. There are roles to be played and separate people to act them out. Formal dress did set the stage for what we consider "traditional dress" for an American magician. It is quite different in India. And they had performing magicians in India long before the USA had a name. I have no problem with a magician dressed as Indian (the real kind) doing magic with Indian themed props for an audience of cowboys, truck drivers, nurses and US Congressmen. The show has to be on theme; the audience is free to be whatever. My pet peeve is the common practice using Asian swords for European magic. My second one is using techno “music” for classical magic. There is no reason why drama has to be historically correct but it should make sense and achieve a fit somewhere! Many acts are presented like a cowboy western with ray guns and bionic horses being attacked by sea monsters in Death Valley after curfew in Baghdad on Mothers’ Day in alternate leap years. (Did I say in a tail coat, sweatshirt, and children's shoes?) The theme gets very hard to recognize and impossible to follow. Perhaps the audience claps so they are allowed to leave? Bob Magic By Sander |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Bob Sanders wrote...
"Many acts are presented like a cowboy western with ray guns and bionic horses being attacked by sea monsters in Death Valley after curfew in Baghdad on Mothers’ Day in alternate leap years. (Did I say in a tail coat, sweatshirt, and children's shoes?)" ROTFLMAO! The thing is if it wasn't true it wouldn't be so sad... Good one Mr. Sanders!
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Brother Kotah New user wWsconsin 45 Posts |
This discussion has been very stimulating, with many excellent points favoring one view point or another.
As insiders, we see our tools as props. The audience may view them as magic boxes and bags etc. Especially children Adults are often more amazed by objects they can relate to. Close up and often bizarrist or story telling magicians already do this. You always have the option tomodift props to look less proppy. Period appropriate apparatus is also a nice touch. But then, these are just my opinions.
He who sees strangely
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Dr.Maya Baalaamurugaan Regular user 163 Posts |
It all depends on the overall theme of the show.
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