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sodman12
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raleigh
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Can someone tell me, post a video or point me to a video of a casino dealers shuffle sequence
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
J Wessmiller
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Wash, riffle, riffle, strip, riffle, cut.
be well,
JW
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http://wessmiller.blogspot.com
The Dowser
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The most common sequence is Riffle , Strip , Riffle , Riffle, then cut . A box preceeds each riffle and the third riffle will be a lace with an incomplete square up if multiple decks are being shuffled . There is a great deal of variation in shuffle procedures and some casino's avoid the strip entirely (not many). The shuffles may also differ in the same casino depending on which game is being dealt . For an interesting bit of info which may explain why an "opening shuffle" (new deck) is often quite different from the shuffle used during play check pg.136-137 of Peter Griffin's THE THEORY OF BLACKJACK .
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tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
sodman12
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raleigh
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Thanks tommy
does anyone have a video of the sequence? Im not sure that I have ever an entire sequence from the wash to the cut.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
meijin
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Anyone want to take a swipe at defining strip and box? I seem to remember a thread discussing whether or not they were the same thing or not. Jason England and someone I think.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-03-02 15:53, meijin wrote:
Anyone want to take a swipe at defining strip and box? I seem to remember a thread discussing whether or not they were the same thing or not. Jason England and someone I think.

Michael



A strip is a "running cut" of the cards, usually 4-6 strips. Some casinos use "thin strips," cutting tiny packets, 10-12 or so. On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen some dealers just strip 3 packets, more or less just giving the deck a triple cut. It varies.

A box is usually a cut of 1/3 of the cards.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Expertmagician
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When you say casino dealers sequence...it depends upon the card game. The best example is blackjack.....years ago there was no real sequence which the dealers had to follow. Within the past 10+ years, the casinos discovered that balckjack players tended to play the same way and cards started to form patterns which were hard ti break up during normal shuffling.

This discovery was used by card counters to increase their edge even further.

So, the casinos developed shuffling routines which were designed to mix the cards to break these patterns and mix the cards much more effectively. You see card counters like clumps of high and low cards...but the house likes more random patterns because they result in more "bust" hands (12 - 16).

Thay is one reason why casinos are starting to use shuffling machines. These machines randomize the cards even more effectively than people and they get to deal more hands per hour. This is a double gain for the house....and one reason why you should NEVER play when a dealing machine is used.

Today, dealers MUST follow predetermined shuffling patterns which may vary sleighty from casino to casino...but, most are very similar with the same "randomization goal in mind...to break clumps of high and low cards and to eliminate the effect of card counters and shuffle trackers.

I hope this helps....just go into several casinos and take notes...just no pictures Smile
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Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-03-02 20:43, Expertmagician wrote:
When you say casino dealers sequence...it depends upon the card game. The best example is blackjack.....years ago there was no real sequence which the dealers had to follow. Within the past 10+ years, the casinos discovered that balckjack players tended to play the same way and cards started to form patterns which were hard ti break up during normal shuffling.



I definitely disagree with this. There's always been a set shuffling procedure, particulary after the publication of Ed Thorp's Beat the Dealer. From the old "box shuffle" to the more recent RRSR.

Any shuffle, even machine-based, is potentially exploitable...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
sodman12
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raleigh
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So I guess that's a no on the video. I find it difficult to read how to shuffle, I would rather see someone demonstrate it.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
tommy
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I have never studied a Black Jack or the shuffle really. Ace Tracking is not Counting though.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
meijin
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Tommy:

They may not be the same thing, but ace tracking is not going to be anywhere near as effective without knowing the count. The two are going to go hand in hand together.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
J Wessmiller
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I believe when tommy says 'ace tracking' he means it through the shuffle, not keeping track of them during play- in that case it would go hand in hand with counting.
be well,
JW
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Expertmagician
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Let me clarify...when I said that there was no "shuffling proceedure" years ago....what I was saying is that each casino was VERY different. And even then, I noticed that each dealer varied their shuffle sleightly.

I am talking about 30+ years ago when I first started card counting in Vegas using a multi-count system I developed in college after reading Thorps's book.

I was a computer science and math major back then ..... and minored in the 3 "Ps" (Pinball, Poker and Pool) ... with some backgammon on the side Smile

Today, you will find that there are only a few variations of the shuffling proceedure used in Vegas especially when it comes to multi-deck shoes. I have not been to Atlantic City in a while, so I don't know.

By the way, "shuffle tracking" is not just ace tracking.....it is more like tracking blocks of cards based upon their count and compensating for dilution factors as various blocks are mixed together. It is used in combination with card counting to improve accuracy ... but, it also makes the card counter's job harder Smile

If you document modern shuffling patterns, you will notice that they are designed to dilute any given 26 card block through a wide number of cards which dilutes the count to such a degree that shuffle tracking is almost nullified.

These shuffles also randomize the cards to create more bust hands, as I said above......this is made worse with the advent of new shuffling machines.
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tommy
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You guys know better than me but what you say does not seem to square with what they are saying here:

http://www.blackjackaceprediction.com/


Or does it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-03-02 23:58, tommy wrote:
You guys know better than me but what you say does not seem to square with what they are saying here:

http://www.blackjackaceprediction.com/


Or does it?



That's a controversial book right there.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Expertmagician
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Bear in mind that "shuffle tracking" used to work untill the casinos got smart....that is why they modernized their shuffling proceedure....to take away the extra advantage shuffle tracking gave when incorporated with card counting.

Sorry, no easy money here Smile
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tommy
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The thing with card counting is this as I see it: The casino’s are not dumb and have known about card counting since it’s inception many years ago. They can shuffle any time they want. They have the eye in the sky and as much computer power has they want. The “Casino” is therefore perfectly placed to use card counting against the players to the “Casino’s” advantage. It seems obvious to me that the casino's themselves will be using card counting. Not only will they use it against players using card counting but your square John player. When the casino figure the count is in the players favour they phone down and say shuffle up. When it is not they let you carry on losing.
It is thoughts like that which have always put me off trying to beat the house. To my mind you need to come up with something new to beat the house.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
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I agree...I made out VERY well during the late 1970s and early 1980s....but, stopped in the late 1980s when the casinos started getting too smart Smile

It was fun while it lasted Smile
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JasonEngland
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Expertmagician,

Your point that casinos are "hip" to the concept of shuffle tracking is taken. However you've virtually got the last nail in the coffin. It isn't quite that dead.

Most modern casino shuffling procedures remain very trackable. The question is, are the games profitable? The position of the cut-card, the amount of spread you can get down, and the specific rules themselves can often combine to make an easily tracked game ultimately unprofitable.

Additionally, some of the shuffle machines actually facilitated shuffle tracking due to their near-perfect, perfectly predicatable, mechanical shuffle. Most of those machines have been removed from major properties as far as I know, but there are probably still a few good ones left floating around.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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