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10cardsdown
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In M.I.N.T., Vol. 2, under the title: Long Distance Collectors, it states: "Card students know the source of the original Collectors theme. They also are fully aware of the methods that gave the Collectors the sudden popularity, as it is done today, although some avoid admitting this".

It has always been my understanding that the Collectors plot was originated by Roy Walton. Is Ed Marlo attempting/trying to state that he, or someone other than Roy Walton came up with this plot? Smile
Andrew Loh
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I have been reading many versions of The Collectors plot, I think the originator should be Roy Walton. Many authors credit the collectors plot to Roy Walton.

Andrew
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FredNarlo
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I think it was Roy alton also from what I have read, been told and have researched. (Here is a whole new can of worms but I can't help but say it ...who cares?)
NeoMagic
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Karl Fulves: "Roy Walton's 'Collectors' is one of the most popular card effects to come along in quite a while. Of the many variations now in circulation..." (Epilogue, Issue #10, November, 1970)
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10cardsdown
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I guess my curiosity is peaked by the fact that the "effect" or "plot" was created by Roy Walton, yet Ed Marlo offers this statement with implications. Smile
NeoMagic
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^ Here's a quote from a letter printed in the aforementioned Epilogue: "... Sure, Ed [Marlo] worked out the stuff and in many places he was the first to get it in print, but that doesn't make it his. In MOST cases Marlo was preceded by other magicians. Even when presented with the evidence (as with the double and triple buckle moves) he still claims them as his own. Let me make one point clear. I like Ed and admire his effort to put into print all of the card magic of the present generation. In his attempt to claim so much of it as his own when clearly he is following the work of Vernon and Daley, he casts doubt on the ideas he actually worked out on his own." (Epilogue, Issue #13, November, 1971)

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dai_vernon
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Don't hold me to this as I am a little hazy on the details. I remember someone telling me that Marlo accepted the idea of collectors as Roy's. The presentation idea of cards collecting cards. Then Marlo goes on to say that it is just a multiple sandwhich and that he has methods in print that accomplish that.



Anyways,



Eric Smile
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It is not Roy Walton nor Edward Marlo who first created 'Multiple Sandwich Effect'. At least in my knowledge, the following three tricks predate Roy Walton's publication of 'The Collectors' in February 15, 1969 issue of "Abracadabra".

The Burglars by Orvill Meyer in "More Card Manipulation" (1938).
A Club Sandwich by Milton Miller in June 1949 issue of "Hugar Magic Monthly".
Apex Aces by Jay Ose in "Close up Card Magic" (1962).

Jean Hugard, in "More Card Manipulation", mentioned there had been similar effects before Orville Meyer's trick.

Maybe Marlo was mentioning these tricks, not his methods.

Hideo Kato
foolsnobody
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I believe Walton originated the "collectors" plot which is a little different from a multiple sandwich in effect. However Walton's Collectors uses 3 kings to collect two cards one of which is a joker selected by the performer.

In the Marlo Collectors four like cards, usually aces, are shown and removed from the pack. Three cards are selected by audience memebers and lost in the pack. The aces are placed on top of the pack face up and the pack is given a "magic squeeze" after which the top cards are spread and three face down cards have appeared interspersed between the aces; they are the three selected cards.

This is how the effect appears though in actuality there is a slight difference in the order of events that makes the various methods possible.

What Marlo added was collecting three cards with four like cards instead of two cards with three like cards; the fact that the spectator(s) choose all the selections; the fact that the collector cards are apparently separated from the pack during (most of) the selection process. Marlo also devised methods to clean up the discrepancies and weaknesses in other methods, but there are always tradeoffs.

Walton also created the first version to use collectors with different color backs, called "Ambush." This effect uses four collector cards.

Ose's variant of the Apex Aces, in Close Up Card Magic, was something I used before I ever learned my first "collectors" trick out of Hierophant. From the reaction I got at the time I would have to say that to the layman that effect was equally as amazing.
RandyWakeman
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Quote:
On Mar 10, 2006, foolsnobody wrote:
I believe Walton originated the "collectors" plot which is a little different from a multiple sandwich in effect. However Walton's Collectors uses 3 kings to collect two cards one of which is a joker selected by the performer.


Yes! The original "Collectors" was a double sandwich genre effect where the performer forced one selection on himself. Marlo credited Walton many, many times although just one free selection by the audience and a "Double Sandwich" is a far cry from what the "Collectors Plot" is today.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Sep 27, 2016, RandyWakeman wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 10, 2006, foolsnobody wrote:
I believe Walton originated the "collectors" plot which is a little different from a multiple sandwich in effect. However Walton's Collectors uses 3 kings to collect two cards one of which is a joker selected by the performer.


Yes! The original "Collectors" was a double sandwich genre effect where the performer forced one selection on himself. Marlo credited Walton many, many times although just one free selection by the audience and a "Double Sandwich" is a far cry from what the "Collectors Plot" is today.


It doesn't take a leap of logic to expand a trick from one selection to three.

At any rate, the plot predates both Walton and Marlo. Credit should go to OW Meyer's "The Burglars" (although Walton opted to use faceup sandwich cards).

In a perfect world, credits would read something like this:

The triple sandwich plot is a creation of OW Meyer's. Roy Walton created the flagship trick now known as Collectors, which also featured the now-standard "moment" in which the Aces (or what have you) are dropped onto the deck, and then immediately spread to show three cards caught between them. Ed Marlo adapted Walton's trick to include three selections, and also published and standardized a variety of handlings, many of which are still being adopted and updated today.

Take care,
R
RandyWakeman
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It never takes "a leap" . . . unless no one bothered to thoroughly explore it or do it before. Credit goes to Roy Walton, for "Collectors" is his title and it was his routine that spawned most of what came later: Walton was the inspirational source for many, many versions, some of course improved. For example, Open Travellers / "Invisible Palm"-- it was originated by Bill Miesel, though few (no one) uses his handling.

Just to call something a sandwich trick is dismissive. Larry Jennings' "The Visitor" is a sandwich trick, but there is no confusing it with any generic sandwich routine.

The "leap of logic" doesn't tell the tale. Vernon's Triumph was not a new effect, but it was originally done with a gaffed deck. If you can net a substantially similar effect and reaction from a borrowed or ungaffed deck as from a gaffed deck, that is a step forward though no great leap of logic necessarily exists.
Rupert Pupkin
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Randy, I wasn’t being dismissive, I was using your terminology. You called Collectors a “double sandwich”.

I’m not dismissing Marlo with the “leap of logic” comment. Just pointing out that his variations, in EFFECT, are not “far cries” from Walton’s. A double sandwich to a triple sandwich could be seen as an improvement, but not much DIFFERENT. His methods, on the other hand, were quite different.

It’s no small fact that Marlo standardized many approaches to the plot, including the use of three selections. We just need to differentiate between standardization and creation – two very different things, and each significant in their own rights.

So in more abbreviated terms, it’s best to say:

Meyer originated. Walton popularized. Marlo standardized.

Take care,
R
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