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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
This Challenge Is For Those Who Judge Others Too Harshly
A person sincerely wanting help wrote me this regarding Charlie’s Cold Deck Switch on Sal’s DVD on Cheating at Poker. “I thought the move was pretty crappy as demonstrated on the DVD. Can you help me to see or understand what it is that I am missing with it? Others, including you, think otherwise and I'd like to learn what it is that I am missing.” Doc’s Cold Deck Challenge Many of us (especially magicians) judge others too harshly on their move/technique etc. but at the same time couldn’t do the move to save their life so this is why I’m making a challenge to you all. This test is not to embarrass people but to make magicians/gamblers better and to make them less judgmental. Doc What About You? I took this same challenge sometime ago and won on occasions and I lost on other occasions; in what way? On my Greek Deal I gave up on my own invention because of various reasons until Alan Halcon showed me his and it was exactly what I would have been doing if I pursued it but since I didn’t therefore I LOST; on my Infinity Pass I WON. I read Erdnase about there has yet to be a pass that can be done at the table etc. (for further info. See Tom Wolf’s Blink Shift Pass) and I took the challenge. Magician’s It’s Your Turn I made up this challenge for those who were harshly critiquing Charlie’s Cold Deck Switch but here I’m changing it for the magicians…do the challenge as written below but apply this to a trick that you want to invent or that you saw but you don't know how to do. Gamblers/Cheats It’s Your Turn The Challenge What I would like you magicians/cheats to do is sit down at your kitchen table/desk in front of a mirror and make up a cold deck switch that you like and will ultimately die for because if you do it at a table with a killer and you’re caught you will. After you get this move/your trick pat down every time you make a mistake say "POW" that means you've just been shot dead. Note: This is mainly directed toward gamblers but will vary according to each magician trick or sleight that he/she is trying to do. Before you start this exercise your first job is to secretly get your cold deck out of your pants pocket/jacket or where ever without looking suspicious or like you're not doing anything. The next thing you have to do is position that deck that's in your hand(s) in order to switch the deck that just been handed to you to cut. Ooops that's the second level...I mean the cards that you just shuffled and handed to a person to cut...now you have to immediately grab the set up/cold deck and replace it for the regular deck just shuffled. Note: The deck that will be placed in is in the exact order that everybody at the table is supposed to get a hand. For those who don’t understand let me explain myself more clearly you are not just getting a deck in the game, it has to be exactly in new deck order from top to bottom when you are about to deal. The Big Picture This is your scenario...you're playing Texas Hold'em and 9 players are at the table and 2 of them is on either side of you and you're playing by yourself meaning no help. Now for the killer... don't use Charlie's switch nor his hold out shirt; make up your own. The Second Test I'm making it easier for you now, since you have tried your own way and haven’t been successful now do the same above scenario but with Charlie’s technique/magician’s technique. Before You Judge Others Question Yourself Sit back and think…what if I never saw or heard of this move before, how would I begin to imagine doing it? Would I have the heart to do it in a game/audience? Now the tragic part (magicians think this Q is not for you)...if I'm having trouble as a magician what if I was a layman trying to do this? Note 1: If you don't know what I mean by this show a friend a trick and tell him/her to show you a trick that looks exactly like it by the end of the week. Don't give him/her any clues whatsoever. Note 2: Second Scenario: Tell them to imagine a trick. Give them a description of a trick (the 4 Ace trick) and tell them to have it done by next week. Judge Not For those who think Charlie or any magician’s move is crappy please do all of the above and write back to the forum your results. People always judge other people/moves/technique harshly but when it's time for them to do it they always have some kind of excuse. My exercise is for those who have or judge others harshly. What You Have That Others Don’t (For The Gambler’s Only) Being that you're a magician you have an extremely great edge over a layman therefore you have only a week to do this in. Why? because your life is at stake playing my poker game. If you accomplish learning a cold deck feat that will pass a poker game you will live if you don’t you die/if you make a mistake/found cheating you die. Note: In my poker game I’m only an observer that keeps his mouth shut, whatever happens to you happens to you but you must play or you will die in either case. Write to the forum if you passed the test or died. You’re Not The Judge Any Longer You have been too harsh on others now the judgment has turned on you. By the end of the week you will not be the judge, "I am." Your week starts at the end of reading this. Those who thought that Charlie’s Switch was nice and liked it you may go free. Andrei you passed my test with flying colors and you didn’t judge, you may go free. Now for the rest of you, you better pass my test or else…I’m not signing this because I AM (God Almighty) Ex. 3:14 is really the judge of all. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ok I get the point here but let me ask a question.
I am one who can be called judgemental. But if I am telling the truth and it really is BAD, then who am I helping by telling them it looks good? Am I not actually hurting someone more than helpinig them by not being honest? Where is the line drawn between honesty and judgemental. My ability to do or not do the move means nothing as to the ability of the person doing it. It is an irrelivant concept if I can do it or not. I can't paint, but I know full well when it is done wrong. Being mean is not called for, but being honest is. Magicians go too far and want everyone to say "oh yea a laymen would never see that". It is nonsense. Just because someone does not know what a double lift is does not mean they can't see one. This idea that everyone is good and all we have to do is encourage them, leads to bad magic. That is a problem that is far worse than the "Masked Magician" if you ask me. People end up exposing magic because they are horrible at it. This hurts our art. If anything we need to be less harsh yes, but more honest. The idea that "truth" is nice and nobody is offended, well that is very childish. We need to be able to grow and learn and make mistakes, without it being harsh, but without it being too soft on them either. If we want to be taken seriously as an art form perhaps we should start to go through some of the trials and tribulations that others go through to be an art. Try going to Juliard and asking the teachers to be less "harsh". People pay lots of money for that honesty. I guess maybe we should do the same or be religated to an art form that people associate only with childrens birthday parties. (nothing wrong with that mind you, just that it can be used in other places is my point.) Hope this wasn't harsh.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
To Whom This May Concern (This Does Not Apply To All: You Know Who You Are)
Mr. Doyle is absolutely correct in what he is stating because I'm frank with people about certain thing too; A friend (a real friend) should never lie to a friend. Please read what he wrote and then take into account what I just said; the two together is what I really wanted to say. Thanks Mr. Doyle for your help in elaborating on what I previously wrote. Your Friend Doc By the way Mr. Doyle you may go free, honesty is very welcomed at this place. |
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
Doc - I'll take the challenge anyway. I have a totally different idea than last time.
Andrei |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
You know that you're going to have to send me the video right?
To all who may not know this Andrei is the 3rd best cold decker that I know. Note: I made this statement and stand by it until I meet someone esle better. It also should be noted that I did not say that he could get the deck out great nor did I say that he can make it disappear great, this is the challenge I believe he's talking about. To the Uninformed there are 4 stages to Cold Decking: 1. Setting Up the Deck. 2. Bringing out the deck. 3. Deck Switching and 4. Getting rid of the switched deck. Signed Doc Holiday |
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
I'll try for a side view. Still polishing the idea, but it's probably something you've been through already, and moved on to something better.
Andrei |
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Doc,
For whatever its worth, I would like to say that I have always loved the concept of deck switching. I do this several ways as a magician not as a gambler. Charlie's Cold Deck Switch has worked for me as a magician. A magician doing gambling effects and as a magician doing wonders with a shuffled deck. I just arrived from 2 performances tonight. One with laymen and one with a bunch of magicians. They all went nuts. In this case I WON! Again , I speak as a magician, not as a gambler. I am inclined to believe that Charlie, showed a way that only simulates what he really does. This may very well be the basis our "judges" perception of its effectivity. During the explanation, he didn't seem to move the way he did during performance. Of course it was done slower as it was an explanation, but the way he retrieved, switched, and ditched it in the explanation seemed to be too risky and far from the demo. I as a magician saw the concept and worked out a way that would be safe and effective for me. Although "POWS" or gunshots are really remote in the magic world, I still value what I learned from Charlie. Peace to all! Rannie P.S., I did the challenge on my own before I tried it on my audiences. Not exactly as you enumerated them Doc, but similar. Thanks for the Challenge, I can use this as a template for my studies.
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Doc thank you for the kind words and your taking what was written in the way it was written.
I took care to try to be non offensive and really only state things as they need to be stated. I am glad it came across properly as typing and reading does eliminate tone and emotion, which is a handicap! Glad I could help.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-13 12:53, rannie wrote: Rannie you pass the test you may go through... Doc Why is it that the rest of you is not taking this here test. It is applied to magic tricks as well or are you just too lazy to get with the program? We need excellent magicians out here just as well...Invent, Invent, Invent. |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Well, I haven't seen Charlies cold deck switch. I will, becuase I want Sal's DVD's, but I haven't yet.
I am not a harsh judge. For the most part if I can't do it, I think it's great. If I can do it, I only look to see if there is something there that I can use, otherwise I figure if it's good enough for him (whoever is doing or invented the move) I figure it's fine by me. But I will take this challenge. Because I want a cold deck move and I don't have one. And I really haven't seen any to speak of. So I'm going to make up my own move this week. I don't know how it will go, but it can't hurt to try. I'm in. Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Vandy thanks for taking the test...we are here to help each other out and to make each other better. Conversation is good for the soul but so is work/applying. I just want these here magicians to better themselves by bettering their moves. Some of you magicians is making the other magicians look bad.
Oh one more thing, Vandy I read somewhere that you're into gaffed dice? If this be true than we have to talk, I sure need help in this area. Peace Be Unto You and Your Family Doc |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Hello Doc,
Yes, I have been working on the move. Thinking more than working at this point. It's not going well I must admit. Cold deck switches are not easy, from the card cheat perspective. For a magician it's easy as pie. Also, the games I play in I could pretty much do anything with the deck. I don't cheat at cards however. I've been trying to come up with something based on your conditions. If I said "Pow" everytime I screwed up it would sound like there was a popcorn machine next to me. I've gotten nowhere so far. I thought I had something going using the hole near the wrist of a long sleeved shirt. Not the up the sleeve by the cuff, but in the larger hole above there that usually has a button to close it. You can conceal a deck in the sleeve and get it in and out pretty easily. And it wont fall out if you stand up or extend your arm. But nothing really came from that. Still working on it. Yes, I like gaffed dice. If I can help I'd be glad. It's likely that you know as much as I do about it. I do own a juiced dice shaker that is pretty cool. Take Care, Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
The first step , which is getting the deck out of your pants or jacket in my opinion, is where you would often hear the "POW". Worse, be the recipient of it!
That alone is worth the time in practicing or developing ways. What good is a perfect deck switch if you can't get it out for position? I appreciate Charlie's idea, but I found it quite difficult to pull off cleanly. There is too many possible fumbles to get the deck. I did have a topit placed higher than usual for this type of storage , but had to give it up even for magic. I experimented with a device that is easy and rather cheap to make but it makes the first step easier and more natural. Without giving it away, let me just say that I position it on my right side (I'm right handed) rather than the prescribed left side so that the left hand alone does the steal and the positioning. I think that if the right hand takes it from the left, there would be more hand movement . That would be The right leving the table to take it, then position, then the left hand leaves the table to re take. Hope this idea spring up something to the first step. I tried it again tonight and I feel it worked better. The ease and economy of movement plus the ever important confidence that it gave me. Peace, Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
Dai Vernon was a very harsh judge.
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Dai Vernon had the right to be. At least he knew of what he spoke and was considered a Master. I think Doc (and many others) object to people who berate things and people when they couldn't come close to doing what those people have done.
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Interesting point of view, Doc. I disagree completely but still very interesting.
The decision to judge "harshly" (whatever that means) or not isn't dependent on meeting (or failing) any challenge. By this I mean that whether I can perform a good cold deck switch or not does not affect whether I have the right or even obligation to say that somebody else's isn't good. Look, I am not a professional actor nor am I a professional anything when it comes to the whole acting world (thank goodness). However, I can still "judge" whether somebody did a good job in such and such a film and whether a film itself was good or bad. Your challenge is completely meaningless. If a deck switch seems obvious then I will say it is obvious. If details of the switch mean it won't work in a gambling environment, then I can say it. Meeting a challenge does nothing to change the underlying facts. A judgement, by definition, is an opinion based on the facts. Telling me to do something before I have an opinion seems silly. For the record, I perform deck switches often enough that I am comfortable with them. I would never do them when my life is on the line, so I disagree with the whole premise behind the challenge. I also disagree with the idea that this challenge somehow makes my opinion more or less relevant. It seems to me that you have judged those who have judged and formed your own opinions, so here is my challenge to you: Listen to critiques even if they tend to hurt your feelings or they disagree with your opinions. Really listen to them and evaluate the arguments. Look at both sides objectively, then see who you think is actually closer to the truth. I think this type of challenge has more merit, gives more back to the art in terms of encouraging critical thinking, and doesn't act as a deterrent to people giving their opinions, which is why I come to this board on the first place. So a spectator telling a magician that he could see every move and switch is a bad thing? I mean, the spectaor doesn't really know what he is talking about and is not considered a master, right? Well, I would welcome a spectator telling me my deck switch was flawed a lot more than a magician, so I guess I take the completely opposite viewpoint. 100% opposite, isn't that weird? -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
It is weird. But such is life.
I thought we were talking about magicians critiquing other magicians on moves. Not necessarily performance in front of layman. A lot of the moves that are shown here will fly by layman, that dosen't keep them from being ripped by other magicians. If your audience tells you your deck switch is flawed you shouldn't be doing deck switches in front of people. Honest and helpful feedback from your fellow magicians could avoid that kind of thing. You don't just start doing things in front of laymen and wait until they quit telling you that they can see everything to be satsified with a move. And I never said that audience feedback was not important. It's a bit silly to compare a performer whose audience can see "every move and switch" to evaluating a move from the viewpoint of the magician. We are talking about magicians helping each other. If all feedback on this forum was helpful and honest it would be very easy to do what you said in your final paragragh. That's exactly what everyone wants, but it's not what always happens. And yes, a judement, by definition, is an opinion based on the facts. Does that mean all judgement is Gospel? Do you trust the judgement of everyone in the world? Is there anyone in magic whose judgement you would value above anyone elses? If Dai Vernon said he thought you did something extremely well, would still believe it if some kid who has been doing magic for three month told you that you sucked? Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
Carlos - you make correct points, but I don't think that's what Doc meant. His challenge may not be 'accurate' but it is very, very constructive.
So, for those of us (I'm sure there are many here) who enjoy practicing the different moves and ruses, the only thing that his post did was to try to get us to use our heads in bettering ourselves. Nothing wrong with that. I actually think that the mindset behind this constant search for self-improvement is what separates a few top notch mechanics (this applies to magic performes as well, and not just from a 'chops' point of view) from the rest of the crowd. Andrei |
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Okay, I see what you are saying here. So, let me start off by saying that maybe I took the post to be slightly different from what he meant. However, and maybe this comes from being in the science field where peer-review is not only encouraged but mandatory, I feel that criticism is required in order for the art to better itself. The magic world is filled with tricks that have been improved over and over. Instead of looking at a handling or whatever and saying "Well, that isn't very good but I can't do it better" people have developed new handlings that take care of the issues raised. Furthermore, more often than not, the issues are raised by one person and "fixed" by another. Once again, I feel this is for the overall improvement of the art. Just my opinion, just as a critique is an opinion, so take it as you will.
If Dai Vernon felt that my pass, for example, was very technical and smooth *BUT* some kid was able to see it every time then I would believe the kid. He may not even know it is called the pass but, regardless, I would have failed as a performer. If I fail as a performer then no accolades, from anybody, can make me feel good about it. You raise the issue of belief. I don't think belief is relevant. If the kid can prove to me that he could see what I was doing, belief comes from that. The whole "you suck" thing is not only unhelpful but it does nothing to inspire belief. So, I ask you: If the same thing happened but the kid said that your bluff pass wasn't convincing, your double wasn't aligned, and your turnover pass was obvious (all of which you used in the routine), would it really matter whether you performed it well for Vernon? I sincerely hope not, but my approach is that it is the performance that matters, not the jockeying around between magicians. -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Carlos, in the end it is the audience that is the final judge. Of a performance, I agree 100 percent. But we also have here on this forum; card cheats, hobbyists who don't perform for the public and all sorts of move monkeys that only do moves for each other. Guys who session with other magicians etc. Card cheats don't work for audiences and can't practice in front of their marks.
I don't want to argue. I know what you are saying. Helpful criticism is good. Yes a comment like "you suck" is unhelpful and uninspirational. But that's what a lot of the comment around here amounts to at times. What you are refering to would be an example of the best of what we see around here, my examples are of the worst. We do get both. For me, I'm going to think about and work on my card cheats cold deck move tonight. That's not a bad thing. It's good. And I'm gonna challenge and be hard on myself and rip my OWN self unmercilessly. Like I always do. Vandy P.S. Can you really imagine a scenerio in which a person could have recieved high praise from Vernon for a pass that wouldn't get past a child? Come on. I understand playing the Devils advocate, but let's not go off the deep end.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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