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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
I agree with you more than disagree. The original post, however, wasn't directed at those who merely say "You suck", it was directed at those who judge harshly. I think harsh judgements are warranted, needed, and help, as long as they are presented in the proper way. Furthermore, I think issuing a challenge is the exact opposite thing you want to do. Take this particular topic, for example. I could have just said something stupid like "The original post is wrong" and ended it there. Instead, I gave my opinion, stated it was an opinion, and gave my reasoning. Whether you agree or not, it makes one thing, which is the whole idea. Saying that I need to perform this and that challenge in order to state my opinion is, In my opinion, counter-productive and will result in an overall decrease in interaction and, thus, creativity in the art.
As for the quote above, I think maybe we both are off the deep end here. I cannot begin to count how many people perform tricks flawlessly for those people they know and then butcher them in front of an audience. For the life of me, I cannot understand how this cannot be obvious to even the most casual observer. Performing for an audience and for fellow magicians is a completely different world and success in one means absolutely nothing relative to success in another. So, to respond to your quote, not only do I think it is possible, I would be willing to bet that this exact thing has happened more than once, especially with the number of people who interacted with (in this example) Vernon. Do you mean to tell me otherwise? I'd really love to hear the reasoning, maybe it will make me change my mind. -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Quote:
Okay, I see what you are saying here. So, let me start off by saying that maybe I took the post to be slightly different from what he meant. However, and maybe this comes from being in the science field where peer-review is not only encouraged but mandatory, I feel that criticism is required in order for the art to better itself. The magic world is filled with tricks that have been improved over and over. Instead of looking at a handling or whatever and saying "Well, that isn't very good but I can't do it better" people have developed new handlings that take care of the issues raised. Furthermore, more often than not, the issues are raised by one person and "fixed" by another. Once again, I feel this is for the overall improvement of the art. Just my opinion, just as a critique is an opinion, so take it as you will. Carlos thanks for writing. When wriiting I couldn't think of all the avenues and I'm glad that you wrote what you wrote earlier but what you wrote right now is EXACTLY what I'm talking about or meant. I might have stated it wrong or not clearly in my post but what you just wrote is exactly what I mean. This is why I study the same topic by different authors because sometimes one author explains something better than another and when I explain the same thing I explain it the best way out of the many I've studied to get my point across. Halcon probably can explain me better because he met me, I try to get you to understand certain things in different ways hoping that one of the ways gets you to thinking. I really don't want you here magicians to think that I'm above listening nor learning because if I close my ears I would never learn anything new of which ya'll have a lot to offer. There are kids who I visit at Maui Taco's and they would all tell you that I leave the older magicians and come over and sit with them joking around and explaining things to them. These guys get up under me because I help them and they help me. I critique their work and moves and when I come back them same moves look 10 x better. If you could ask them yourself they would tell you that they have done some moves so good that I video tape them doing gambling moves that I taught some of them and have placed them in my Best of the Best Library. On this note all I'm saying is since I'm typing and you can't see my sparkling personality even though I'm a hard teacher, my students are not scared to approach me for help. I can't show this by writing but my interest is to help everyone like everyone has helped me in getting better. That's all I'm interested in. If I've offended any one in any way I very much apologize but this is not my intention, my intention is to uplift the gambling and magic criteria to another level. For the guys that spoke for me...you explained exactly what I would have said if I could have explained it as clearly as you. I don't need to answer because they spoke for me and eloquently at that.... Again thanks. Doc |
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Oh, no, no offense taken at all. Like I said, I think it was a very interesting post. What I took from it and what you meant may be different but the whole point is to have a dialog, you know?
In any case, THANK YOU for writing and THANKS to everybody else too. For me, the debate is what is really worthwhile. If everybody says the same thing, then one post would be all we need. Anyway, I have to head out, have a great day everybody. -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
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On 2006-03-15 13:29, rannie wrote: Rannie this is funny but now many of ya'll who's reading this also knows my dilemma at the card table. Yes, I have devised certain methods of getting my deck out and into play but it's still iffy with me in the back of my mind, this is why I recently purchased the cold deck hold out to solve this problem. I might if I'm not lazy will show my results to the forum but EVERYBODY HAS TO TRY SOMETHING, it does not have to be a cold deck switch but something new, a new variant to a trick etc. We all can improve especially with the help of other magicians. Your Friend Doc |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Carlos you take an unpopular stance here and I admire you for it.
I also happen to agree with you. PEOPLE are the final judge, not magicians who blink at the right time and say things like, " a laymen won't see that".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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halcon Loyal user 251 Posts |
I can say this about Doc, because I met him, he is very charming in person. we were walking down the street and it's as if he knew everyone. he comes across very humble. I even pointed out to him, he has an aura of innocence. this charming innocence seems like he doesn't know anything and just when you least expect it WHAM! he cold decks you.
when he teaches you, he will make sure you have the mechanics right so you can practice on your own. he won't let you get up out of the chair until he knows you have and understand the mechanics. Halcon |
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JustinVisible Elite user South Jersey/Philadelphia Areas 453 Posts |
Hmmm.... original post "...reads like radio instructions"... I'm kind of confused by the whole thing............ JPV
"If they laugh, it's funny..."
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Doc,
Give me a few days and I'll send you a demo. I want to improve my existing idea more before I show you. I'll update you now and then as I progress. Your friend, Rannie Posted: Mar 16, 2006 5:56am ----------------------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-03-15 10:34, Vandy Grift wrote: Vandy, I gave this idea a shot years ago for a gambling effect I was working on. The concept was rather similar to what I was experimenting on. The problem that I encountered was not the opening and closing of the hole but the weight of the deck. My sleeves would swing back and forth. On a table setting (seated) The weight and thickness of the deck made it impossible for me tolook relaxed. I had to elevate my arms more than an inch parallel to the table for clearance. It would have been a good switch if not for this. As a magician in a controled environment, by this I mean the audience were in front. No one beside me directly. For that purpose , it worked. For Doc's requirements I would have been DEAD! Vandy, could we be thinking of the same thing? Your Friend, Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Rannie,
We may be thinking of the same thing. I can put a deck in there and still look pretty relaxed. But there are some big problems with it. For one, if you slip an uncased deck into your sleeve,it will stay and you can move around (at least in my shirts) but there is a danger that the deck could get mixed up. I put a deck in my sleeve and walked around and moved things around on the table and it stayed in order. But it's very dicey. Plus given the conditions of the challenge it's almost impossible to get the deck from your pocket into your sleeve while seated at the table. I didn't even try to button and un button the sleeve. I just worked with it open. If I could find a good way to make the switch I would probably gaff the sleeeve so that it looked like it had a button on it, but was actually being held shut with a magnet. I haven't come up with a good way to make the switch while being burned using the sleeve. I am going to have to try something else I guess. It's not an easy thing to do. I do not believe I will pass this challenge as it is set out. But it's fun to work on it. Maybe I will come up with SOMETHING useful out it. Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Vandy,
It really is fun to work with ideas and challenges like these. Good luck buddy! I'll keep you posted with my progress. Regarding "being burned", I find this really interesting. As a magician, I feel that if my hands are being burned, and I am constantly watching my audience, I resort to other means. Either I move on to another effect or other sleights, or cast my misdirection OR not do my move at all. Patience is golden and if your life is at stake I think patience or abstinence could be a life saver. Granting that they (audience or players) are burning your hands to death. Then again if in a real game you are not known to be a cardsharp, there is no reason why they should burn your hands. I guess more than the hand skills , from the first step to the deck switch, even to the hold out system and the nerves of steel, the cardsharp must have the skills of of an actor. He must be unknown. Of course there can only be one Doc, I really meant being unknown. Most of the cardsharp who heard the dreaded "POW" probably thought that all they needed were the "Chops". Same in magic, most young magicians think that if they could do a one handed "this" and "that", heck even if they could do the cobra cut, they are instant magicians. There are more factors to both disciplines than just the moves. Psychology, constraint, patience and presentation. Also timing. As in, is it a good time to do this or that? I'm afraid I may be veering away from the topic, but I feel it was worth mentioning. I am no expert or whatever, but I do know that I have commited several mistakes in my early years in magic and I made notes of them. I have somehow abandoned the deck in the sleeves concept and moved into placements and holder design for the deck. I am also currently working on a prototype that could be attached to any table. I need more time. Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Is there a clip somewhere of "Charlie's Deck Switch"?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Jon,
I only saw Charlie's Deck switch from Sal's new DVD. I am quite sure that there is no other source for this demo. Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Andrei Veteran user Romania 353 Posts |
Rannie - I think you're doing great.
I want to say a couple of things about deck burning. Indeed, nobody is burning your hands, but, depending on how many people you play with, at least one or a few are bound to eye the deck as it's being cut, or as the cards are dealt out. So, to avoid any sort of burning, the move would have to be done at a different time than that, but that makes it, to my mind, a little less practical and more difficult to devise and pull off. Also, you need to think about what you are going to do if something goes wrong. For instance, assuming you cold deck on the cut, imagine you've already got your deck set up for the switch. Now imagine that, instead of putting the deck down sideways, like he usually does, the guy next to you puts the deck down straight. What then? Remember, you've got the cooler in a certain position ready for the switch, and now the heat is on the cut. Just some things to consider. Andrei |
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
The truth Andrie is that the guy next to you more often than not, puts the deck down the way you don't want him to. LOL! But its true!
Thanks for pointing that out. It made me remember this reality. Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-16 13:23, Andrei wrote: Andrei, I was going to say exactly what you did about the "burning". The cut and just prior to the deal (espically in a dealers choice game where everyone is looking at you to see what game you are going to call) seem to be times when the heat is really on. The second thing I quoted above, about someone putting the deck down sideways. This happened to me not one month ago. My buddy on the left was placing the deck down straight. Basically the short end pointing right at me. He was doing it every time I dealt. Now, this guy plays a lot of poker and I thought maybe he had read somewhere about hopping the deck or something. I didn't know why he was doing it, but if I had wanted to hop the deck (which would actually have flown at this game) I couldn't have done it. I have played cards for 15 years with this guy and never saw him do this. I finally just asked him "why do you keep cutting the deck that way?" he said "I don't know, I wasn't really think about it". I don't know if he was doing it for a reason or not. But it's interesting that you would mention that. Rannie, Yes it is fun to do these things. And helpful as well. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-15 17:11, Vandy Grift wrote: Hey Vandy, First off, this post is not really directed towards you, but you had the quote I am going off, so I wanted to stress that. I have really, really thought about this and I am still incredulous that this point of view exists. No, strike that. I know that this point of view exists but I can't believe somebody can use it as some sort of argument. I mean, this type of thinking is what I think contributes to so much bad magic. Here is an example that everybody must has seen and that I have presented before: a magician does a trick for his buddy magicians flawlessly. He asks for advice, gets some presentational things that don't really fit (because we all love to talk so much), and decides to move the routine into his act. Now, he takes the attitude above and says to himself (either conciously or sub) "Well, I fooled Vernon and the guys and they are soooo much smarter than the regular person so I don't have to put forth the same effort". I have seen this more times than I can count, as I am sure all of you have. Once again, it doesn't matter who you fooled before, you are only as good as your last performance. Once again, I can virtually guarantee that somebody has done something Vernon would approve of and IN THE SAME NIGHT butchered the trick without even realizing it because too much stock was placed in an opinion of one performance for somebody else, somewhere else. Whether you are a professional, hobbyist, gambler, or whatever, this type of thinking will destroy whatever you want to do. Am I really the only person who feels this way? -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Carlos,
It's cool. I do hear what you are saying. But here is where I'm coming from; Layman can also be overly polite and smile and say "that was great" while a magician flashes all over the place. I've seen it. Not very helpful. We are talking about honest feedback and criticism. I don't want the help of someone who blinks at the right time. That's silly. Nor do I believe that one should go to laymen and ask for critique of moves. If at the end of the show your audience is happy, you have succeeded. That dosen't mean you have done everything the best way possible. Or that there is no room to improve. Or even that you didn't flash something to them. When I want help I ask people who know what's up and I trust them to HELP me. The plumber dosen't go to the butcher for advice on how to fix a broken pipe. If you are in favor of very harsh criticism, which you and Danny are (and I am as well, when it's constructive) it's seems counter intuitive to say "the audience will be my judge". The audience is NOT going to be your harshest critic. Not by a long shot. When you screw up in front of someone, they are usually going to be very polite and whatever they say about you will not be said to your face. It will be said behind your back or after you leave. While you are patting yourself on the back for satisyfing the "final judge" you may be a laughingstock in thier minds. Seems to me that some combination of helpful advice from your peers as well as carefully observation of your audience will lead to the best magic we can produce. I know you don't agree with this, that's fine. But I gotta go with what works for me. I'm getting better and better all the time. With a little help from my friends. I don't believe that asking for help from other magicians is leading me to BAD magic. Vandy P.S. When I decided to do this challenge, it was not because of the "Harsh Criticism" aspect of it. I just wanted to work on something. I'm very harsh on myself anyway. And I can take harsh criticism as well.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-15 19:05, Dannydoyle wrote: By agreeing with me, you also happen to be right! I am actually totally joking. The way I see things, I think everybody's opinion is equally valid, popular or not. After all, they are just opinions, right? I guess that I feel an obligation to voice my opinion when it seems many others are of a different mind. Generally, people like herd mentalities and people can get very, VERY upset when you disagree (which is something that always boggled my mind). Disagreements are how things evolve and change. Fear of differing ideas are the biggest danger to advancement in the entire world. Socrates had different ideas, BLAM, he's dead. Galileo, BLAM, died after being convicted of heresy. We have all heard of all of these stories and yet, the same behavior happens quite often (I am not saying it happens here a lot but I am not saying it doesn't either). Somebody has the nerve to disagree and people jump all over them. That is why I try to stress that everything I say is an opinion and that is all and that even though I may have a differing opinion, I still respect yours. Other than blatant falsehoods, I respect everybody, even if I call them on specific things they write or say they believe. To some it is controversial but I come from a science background and this is the type of thing that has allowed people to not worry about polio or smallpox or a thousand other things that science has helped cure. I truly think that application of scientific method to magic can do nothing but help. Not to anybody in particular I ask this question: If my disagreeing with you troubles you, you need to ask yourself why. Is it because nobody should "dare" disagree or is it because your point of view is so weak that any disagreement shakes the foundation of your beliefs? For example, is me saying that maigicians' opinions of your skill are pretty much worthless really that disturbing that you need to make all kinds of weird examples to try and disprove it (and failing)? Is it because it makes you realize that every time you are on stage, you start with nothing? That is a scary thought but that is my whole point. I think this type of thinking needs to be encouraged. By the way, I love it when people disagree with me because then I know the topic is interesting. If everybody agreed on everything, the whole board would become meaningless to me, how about you? I hope that this brief discussion about disagreement doesn't upset anybody but if it does, why? What is so threatening about some healthy debate? -Carlos PS- Thanks again, man. I know we are in agreement here but I hope that people who disagree with me see my point as well, which is why I wrote this post. Quote:
On 2006-03-16 14:37, Vandy Grift wrote: Based on what? What you should do is videotape your performances. Not your practice sessions, not your interactions with magicians, but your performance in front of audiences. You will be shocked on how different you are. I know this to be true and so will anybody who does any amount of performance. Performance in front of an audience will change what you do down to a subconcious level. Then you have to go over the video VERY HARSHLY. As far as I am concerned, you cannot be too harsh. Likewise when others view it, I feel the same way. Remember, what you do out there reflects on me as well. I only have the highest standards for myself and, thus, for you as well. Magicians are too polite because, on some level, they know how you are fooling them so they tend to overlook things they "think" the audience won't notice. This is why I think magicians are just about the worst people to get feedback on outside of a performance arena. You have your opinion, which I respect, but I heartily disagree, which is my opinion. Just ask yourself, is your opinion based on the facts or what is easy?
Cognite tute
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meijin Regular user Atlanta, GA 189 Posts |
Since I can't pass this test, I'd like to ask about something:
Quote:
To the Uninformed there are 4 stages to Cold Decking: 1. Setting Up the Deck. 2. Bringing out the deck. 3. Deck Switching and 4. Getting rid of the switched deck. I'd like to hear Doc and others talk about Item #1 above. I would assume that there is a real science to setting the deck up. How strong to make it...don't want them to go out, but don't want to make it some crazy 4 Aces versus 4 Kings type of thing. Thanks! Michael
Michael
There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots! Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I run into this problem a lot Carlos. People take honesty and bluntless as rude.
It is not rude. Oh and for the record I don't believe you spoke poorly of anyones performance in spacific or in general. You simply stated that we are all a reflection on each other, which to me seems as well as being factually correct, rather disturbing. I hold the same standards you do, but when others don't it brings us all down. THIS is the reason for honest critisism as I mentioned in my first post. The title mentioned judging harshly. Carlos seems to be on topic. People take honesty wrong and thing they need to be coddled and then it is called honest. Truth is truth, weather we like it or not. I feel this is kind of on topic still.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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