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tommy
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Quote:
On 2006-03-18 19:29, sunnydolan wrote:
If I were to cheat in a casino, I would use moves like palms and mucks that the camera couldn't see. The chances are greater that a player would see, but then its just my word against his.


I see, so when we are cheating in a game where there is no camera, we have nothing to worry about at all: "Prove it sucker, you ain't got no camera!" Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
sodman12
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I don't think the guy that tried that would be around for very long to talk about it

although in a casino its not that bad of an idea. past posting works the same way. since the only person that your trying to beat is the dealer and not everyone around you.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
iamslow
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Quote:
On 2006-03-18 19:29, sunnydolan wrote:
If I were to cheat in a casino, I would use moves like palms and mucks that the camera couldn't see. The chances are greater that a player would see, but then its just my word against his.

I would guess you are not even old enough to get into a casino..Smile
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
tommy
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My Guess is many of us wish we were smart enough to stay out of them.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
ClouDsss
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We need to watch Las Vegas the series
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
iamslow
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On 2006-03-18 04:09, sodman12 wrote:
Well the eye in the sky is really only there for review. If you were to pull one good move that took down a decent pot and just played straight for the rest of the time I doubt you would be caught by the eye unless you had someone at the table spot the move and tell. any prove my statement wrong?
I would say that most casino scams at least in poker would only lend a small advantage and not a large one. such as know one or 2 others hole cards at the table. or one card on the flop. it is difficult and risky to pull out all the stops since if your caught you most likely going to get 1)beat down or 2)jail

I totally agree with you except for the last statement... I know for a fact that you wouldnt get beat down in a casino and as for jail, its not possible here in Canada(for first offence) I think its much different in other countries... I personally know of a MAGICIAN friend that's a dealer that is currently and almost constantly pulling off moves on the poker table at a commercial casino...I myself used to practice moves under the eye all the time when I dealt poker. Of course, I didn't know the identity of the cards(I just practiced some seconds and some stacking but with random cards) It is impossible to fool and misdirect a camera, but its useless without a knowledged operator... That is the problem with many casino's today... the technology is getting bigger and better, but unfortunately the people operating these pieces of equipment are useless when it comes to the understanding of scams or what moves actually look like... Also, many mentioned the cameras above and moves to combat these cameras... unfortunately in most cases, the camera that's above you isn't watching your table... its the cameras that are above the tables in the next pit is watching your action... Also, the casino that I curently work at has shufflemasters on most of the tables to shuffle the cards... this was initially introduced so that there is more hands per hour... unfortunately, this eliminates the possibility of stacking but opens doors for other scams...
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
sodman12
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Do you deal black jack or poker?
I am looking into getting a job as a dealer. I'm not looking to cheat but I think it might make for a nice job on the side. you have to go to dealer school right?
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
iamslow
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On 2006-03-22 00:12, sodman12 wrote:
Do you deal black jack or poker?
I am looking into getting a job as a dealer. I'm not looking to cheat but I think it might make for a nice job on the side. you have to go to dealer school right?


To answer your question, I know how to deal All games except for the stupid ones that have popped up in the last decade(im sure if I spent a few minutes, I could learn) I currently work as a Boxman/Pit and unfortunately, I don't get to deal anymore... As for getting a job, you could go to dealer school or you could teach yourself and apply at the casino either way will work... As far as a certificate, it don't mean s--t if you cant deal... the crucial part is passing your table test... that's the bottom line with most places...If you can show your skills(dealing not magic)then you will probably get in... Once you are in, then you can sign up for courses as they are offered by your employers.. As for the money, Its not the greatest pay, but its great considering the amount of education needed and the amount of work you do... It also gets stressful at times, but that's a part of every job.... Its also a good way to keep your hands quick and nimble and get paid at the same time...If you have anymore questions, feel free to send me a pm.
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
mook
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It also doesn't suck to get paid for 8 hours when you're only really working 6 (if that).
iamslow
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Yup
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
The Dowser
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Quote:
I myself used to practice moves under the eye all the time when I dealt poker. Of course, I didn't know the identity of the cards(I just practiced some seconds and some stacking but with random cards) It is impossible to fool and misdirect a camera, but its useless without a knowledged operator... That is the problem with many casino's today... the technology is getting bigger and better, but unfortunately the people operating these pieces of equipment are useless when it comes to the understanding of scams or what moves actually look like...

This idea of doing moves in live play with out actual knowledge just for "practice" bothers me greatly. Stephen Minch wrote this about Jack Carpenter in MODUS OPERANDI (an otherwise awesome book) with the assertion that Jack "DOES NOT CHEAT AT CARDS HOWEVER...".
Leaving aside the arguement of whether this still counts as cheating , I think this can only mean one of two things :
Either the person claiming to be engaged in such activity is merely shovelling some crap or their story is true and they are complete fools (or ultra vain) .
The point of cheating is to gain an advantage (or to make certain the outcome) ...Everytime a real cheater moves they will weigh the risk against the possible take. The idea of taking such risks for no possible reward is just laughable and the claim that you made a habit of this under casino surviellance is hard to swallow. Good luck explaining your second deal as being harmless because you didn't have knowledge of the top card ! The only possible reward is to your ego and regarding this I suggest you refer to erdnase's comments on the subject of ego.
As far as your assertion that the people in surviellance being useless when it comes to understanding scams or knowing what the moves look like ... well ...I'm sorry if that's the experience your having at the casino where you work but I would generally disagree ... although there are days when your statement would seem compelling... I guess there are idiots everywhere but in general most surviellance I've worked with are impressive in their training and knowledge ...only the odd person might be a CHRONIC LAYMAN meaning that you can't show him / her anything and have it stick.
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Im not saying all surveillance people are clueless, what I was trying to say is that pretty much anyone off the street with no prior experience in gaming can get hired for surveillance... As far as doing seconds or stacking, from a surveillance point of view don't you think if you reviewed the tape and tried to puzzle it together, it wouldn't make sense because the expected end result would probably be the unexpected... Now as far as cheating, I wouldn't think that was cheating as no one is being cheated ... changing the position of a card can help a player just as much as it can hinder...Now for you to think that that was a risk without reward, then you have absolutely no clue... "not all rewards have to financial"... Since you seem to know so much, am I correct to assume that you work in the industry as well??? possibly where you live?? In surveillance?? If I am right, then the joke might be on you son... I hope you get promoted and get a big raise...
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
tommy
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Well there is a point to trying moves without cheating to see if any one complains. If that makes sense. Smile Let's say for example you want to find out if you can get away without doing a scramble, then you just don't do one, and see if you get any complaints . If not then you know you can get away with that. etc
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Z
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Look at all you bad-asses "moving" up in Canada. Go team!
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
iamslow
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On 2006-03-23 14:50, Mr. Z wrote:
Look at all you bad-asses "moving" up in Canada. Go team!

haha...go leafs!!...lol
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
sodman12
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Make that Maple Leafs
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
Mr. Z
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On 2006-03-23 19:43, sodman12 wrote:
Make that Maple Leafs


Or Maple Leaves, even.

I see the public school system ain't what it used to be.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
The Dowser
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Now for you to think that that was a risk without reward, then you have absolutely no clue... "not all rewards have to financial"...

I've already acknowledged your non-financial reward ...to your ego .
Tommy ...I agree that establishing an action or a certain procedure is conducive to cheating but if someone is going to execute their actual money move under the camera's , leaving hard evidence for no increased chance of MONEY then they are the ones who are clueless .
IAMSLOW ... I do work in the industry , not for surviellance . Your assertion that a surviellance team , seeing a second deal on their camera's , but not being able to determine it's purpose ( because you were using it at random without actual knowledge of the card ) makes little difference ... If you think you are safe from repercussion because there seems to be no apparent reason for your stupidity , then you are showing your own cluelessness .Good luck with that BOSS.
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sodman12
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I'm don't know if this is correct but if nothing fish happens in the hand and someone may have delt a second then they most likely will not know for sure. I'm not sure how good they are at seeing a second delt but my idea would be that without the evidence of good hands popping up they would never have enough to spot it with.

Dowser , would you rather be caught just dealing a second or dealing a second and giving someone 21?
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
iamslow
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On 2006-03-24 06:15, The Dowser wrote:

Tommy ...I agree that establishing an action or a certain procedure is conducive to cheating but if someone is going to execute their actual money move under the camera's , leaving hard evidence for no increased chance of MONEY then they are the ones who are clueless .


Dowser, again you didn't get my point... for me, its not about the money, I don't steal and don't need to steal... I work in the industry because I enjoy working there... not for the money... I am a partner in a call center in asia and I make 4 times the amount that I make working as a pit at the casino ... SO as for the risk of getting canned for not following dealing procedures didn't phase me at all...Now since you work in the industry, what would you have done if you were the guy upstairs that happens to see this... what would you tell me when I get called to the office?? As for seconds and stacking being my money move, you are definately mistaken... If I was gonna steal from the casino, believe me it wouldnt be from the poker table...now as for you thinking its an ego thing, then that is your opinion... I guess you can call me an egomaniac for practicing moves under fire... the same way a magician tries out a new routine for the first time on the lay public...
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
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