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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Hold'em tournaments: ways to cheat and protection tips.... (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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iamslow
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Thanks for answetring my questions!!! I am also still a student of the gaming industry and I can use all the Info and advice I can get...


jon
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iamslow
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Back to the topic, I just thought of onpossible scam... Basically, cheating the seating arrangement... Basically, put all of the top dogs on one table and let them eat each other alive in the earlier rounds...
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Andrei
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Why would you?

That'd just make the rest of the tournament dull, which is very bad for business.

Andrei
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Quote:
On 2006-03-26 02:06, Andrei wrote:
Why would you?

That'd just make the rest of the tournament dull, which is very bad for business.

Andrei

I thought I was slow... read the topic again..
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tommy
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Hi Daegs

First I am sorry for the bad writing in the last post and most of posts actually. I am often chatting to you guys while am supposed be running a game and I get interrupted and then forget what I was saying. I don’t have to do a lot to run the game, it is mostly just sitting in the back room. Every now again some one will call for chips or want to cash up and leave or new players will arrive etc. I would prefer to be playing or dealing but it’s difficult trying to do both things.
The game have is like a casino game with tight procedures. I do play in the casino and at other guys games which are much the same sort of games as mine. So I do not see lax sort of games and it is not easy for me to imagine how things might fly in lax procedure games. I tend to see things from a casino poker game prospective. So I am not a very good judge of what anyone get away with in what I call a casual sort of game where players deal themselves.
I do not think I could get away with constantly peeking the burn and dealing seconds in my games therefore it is difficult for me to imagine how any one can get away with some things mentioned even in a casual game. The key word in that is “constantly” . I have no problem with the idea of peeking a card and dealing seconds at the right moment. These moments are few and far between in my games. It is the actual peek more than the second that I am not too happy about, as in my judgment it is not deceptive enough to fool the observant in poker, not constantly at least. Flashing is a better option I think. If some one has found a peek that they are confident and comfortable with, that they can use constantly in their game, that’s cool, but I have not found such a move for miy games. There is no argument that constantly peeking the burn and dealing seconds would be a great advantage. You make a good point about even dealing a bad card can be very helpful and also just knowing a burn card can be useful.
Also I think the advantages would be multiplied if we were talking about Omaha instead of Hold’em. Most of the time here my big cash games are indeed Omaha and up to 6 card at times. The combinations that makes is like holding 15 Hold’en hands each at the start. Big hands like nut flushes, straights, full houses etc are common place in Omaha. Seeing a burn card that might give you the nuts in that game would be far more likely. Omaha is a better game all round when it comes to cheating. Playing the turn in Omaha is cool. Even if you know the ID of just one card that’s imminent among the five community cards is a great advantage in that game. It’s a lot easier and safer than constantly peeking cards and dealing seconds. Good action cash games are Omaha with not so much folding etc.
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On 2006-03-25 20:23, Expertmagician wrote:


Answer: The red filters which the casinos use are specifically designed to tune in onto 2 light frequencies:

1) To catch luminous markings
2) To catch IR markings

I hope this helps !


Expert are you saying you can buy, lets say this:

http://www.simplycasinosupplies.com/casi......der.html

And see IR marks by just looking through it?

That is not so as far as I am aware.

Tommy
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iamslow
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Hey tommy, do you ever run Omaha hi/lo split?? this is another game that could be taken from different angles..
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Yes I do but not much. The standard game I run is Omaha and the player on the button calls how many cards 4, 5 or 6 but they can't call 6 if there are too many players obviously. The comps in the casino’s are nearly all Hold’em. The other variations are played here but they have not took off here really.
Typically over here, the guys play in a comp, usually Holde’m, in the casino, then as they drop out the comp, a cash game starts, which is normally Omaha and Hold’em on another table, which is usually a smaller game, money wise. Then when the casino closes they might head back to my place where the game in normally Omaha. I have only got two tables and only one is usually is being used. That is lets say the normal crowd but I do have some big games where high rollers come and play and they also normally play Omaha. It has be said that my big games are not like they were a few years back. It seems most the big cash players are now on the big comp circuit. I don’t blame them as a lot of them get big sponsorship deals and they can’t lose as they get travel expenses and entry fees and they get on TV and so on. Them who don’t get all that are playing in the big comps hoping to get it. Most of the high rollers don’t really need to gamble it’s just a buzz for them. Getting sponsored is better than cheating if you ask me.
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Andrei
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[/quote]
I thought I was slow... read the topic again..
[/quote]

Well, forgive me for not calling you slow, but I think that would be very rude. You don't seem to think so, but then, opinions differ.

To "cheat" the seating arrangement, I assume you'd have to be the guy running the tournament. The purpose of any scam is to earn money.

Cheating the seating arrangement, in the way you described would actually LOSE money, because, after the 'top dogs' have eaten each other, nobody would be interested in the game any more, certainly not as interested as when the top dogs would all be at the final table. This would lose future sponsorship contracts, tv deals, and there would not be as many people there to see the final table (and maybe gamble on the sides).

Of course, even if the 'top dogs' would knock each other out early on, you would have no way of knowing for sure whether or not your guy stands to win.

I think this is not the best of ideas.

Andrei
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There is old an guy who lives by me. He is a smart guy a retired professor in fact. He is not a gambler and he has never played poker. A few weeks back he asked where I was going and I told him, to the casino to play in the poker comp. How does a poker comp work he asked. So I gave him the basic idea of how a comp works. So he said well that’s easy tell all the guys on your first table not to play but just sit there until there is just one guy left from the other tables, that way all but one you will get to the final table! Smile
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J Wessmiller
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Hey Expert,
If I tell them how to detect these things, then I become less valuable and they will have no need to hire me. Good point though. As Doc says, I need some aces in the hole.
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JW,

It depends upon how much you expose....I have been doing gambling expose's for years and just because people have read about marked cards, seconds stocks, etc. That does not mean you cannot fool them.

While I agree that exposing too much may make you less valuable...but, beware that "a little knowledge is dangerous" and that once their appetite is wet they will want you more to learn the most state of the art technqiues.

In addition, you also don't expose, phycology and subtilities which make many "techniques" more effective.

Look at all the people doing magic and in the Café....we are all very knowledgeable yet we can learn more and still be fooled...especially if an old idea is presented and used differently.
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J Wessmiller
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Expert,
You make a great point. An educated sucker is the easiest target.
be well,
JW
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Tommy,

You pointed me to a red discard tray. The ones that casinos use are made from a filter designed to expose luminous marks and IR marked cards. Be aware, that IR marked cards can vary. The filter wil detect IR markings which are "near IR" and maybe those which are just at the fring of the IR light frequency.

Other IR marks can ONLY be read by using special "expensive" cameras, filters and electronics. Obviously, using heavy duty equipment is not practical in most situations to read marked cards which is why luminous and "near IR" is the most common.

It should be noted that since "near IR" and luminous both use the same filter, you might as well use luminous because you get the same "end result" effect when reading the marks....and luminous is less expensive.

No matter how you slice it, human beings cannot see IR regardless of the filter used with their naked eyes without expensive electronics and filters.

You should also bear in mind that IR does not work well under florecent light, where as luminous works under all light sources.

Side note: Luminous filters cannout detect juiced cards...so if you suspect that people know about luminous, use juice and if they know about juice use luminous....or why not use both and tell people that you are so good that you learned to read luminous marks without your glasses (while you really read the juice Smile

Let's be creative Smile
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tommy
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Thank you again. I tested some IR in the meantime in a casisno red discard tray that I wangled from a small local casino and could not see it. I was not intending any use of it in a casino anyway. Just interested by what you say. Like you say there must different IR but the stuff I tested can not be seen with any filters I have using the eye. However I have seen, via a catalog, clear filters that may see it, but I am far from sure, but they are very expensive. I hope to get to the place that makes them soon so I can test them. The stuff I have did not cost a lot by the way. Works fine with the cam.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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sodman12
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Whats the jail sentence for using marked cards in something like the wsop or wpt?
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
Expertmagician
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To my knowledge it is a Felony not a misdamener. So, you will not be a happy camper...not to mention that yo will be doing a "no no".
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The Nevada Gaming Control Act

1. It is unlawful:

2. (a) To conduct, carry on, operate, deal or allow to be conducted, carried on, operated or dealt any cheating or thieving game or device; or

3. (b) To deal, conduct, carry on, operate or expose for play any game or games played with cards, dice or any mechanical device, or any combination of games or devices, which have in any manner been marked or tampered with, or placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, the result, of which:

4. (1) Tends to deceive the public; or

5. (2) Tends to alter the normal random selection of criteria which determines the result of the game.

6. The use of marked cards, loaded dice, plugged or tampered-with machines or devices to deceive the public is expressly made unlawful.

7. Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than 1 year nor more than 10 years, or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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