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icentertainment Inner circle 1429 Posts |
I guess no one wanted any cheese.
Scratchy, I have browsed your web site and it looks OK until you start reading the material and this has impact on your pricing structure The repertoire page is "What the?" it doesn't say huge fees and the bio page when it says you started off slow, performing for friends and family doesn't sound like a high fee. Now this stuff is mamby, true, but it doesn't translate into big money. You ask what should you be charging? That is a common question. The basic rule is "whatever you think you are worth". All the people here are not the ones to answer the question- it's your event managers that you should be talking to- your customers- Call up the event managers and ask them plainly- "I am readjusting my prices and am wondering what you have paid for your kind of entertainment in the past. And what you would be willing to pay?" - at this point you overstate your prices and if they say, "yes, that's normal", then fine- if they say, "Oh My God", just say, "great, I would like to lower the prices to make it a win-win for me and my clients", and then go on. But don't ask us- Ask your customers |
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dominik Regular user Germany 143 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-03 20:53, RandyStewart wrote: Actually, the one who started the thread with the lady interested in my services was me, and the fee I quoted for the first hour was considerably higher than the fee range that most of us got upset about. |
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inhumaninferno Elite user 452 Posts |
Finally, some decent usable info on setting fees/fee formulas.
Use it and better yourself, don't just get defensive. I'm out of this/these thread(s). Have fun, boys. |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
I only get defensive when attacked. For examples see all posts in this thread by Icentertainment, who has been consistently rude, in a manner that suggests he doesn't come to the Café to be helpful, he comes here to get his jollies. And who also assumes I haven't done all that, an assumption I also find rude.
Feel free to follow the subject all the way back. The only reason I asked what people are charging (not really what I should charge, but I can certainly see where you might think that) was because someone went to the trouble of doing the math on an obscure statement that I didn't think anyone would care about. I had no idea how bored you all are. For high-priced, in-demand entertainers, you sure all have a lot of free time. That was it, there was blood in the water, so I asked the question, and no single person has answered the question I asked yet. All I have gotten are helpful suggestions and witty attacks. I don't mind the helpful suggestions, they aren't what I asked, but at least they are altruistic. To all you magic gods, go back and read the original post in this thread, then go and read all your various replies, and ask yourselves, "did I actualy provide the requested information?". |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hey Scratchy don't get upset when you post something and someone trying to HELP you calls you on it.
A professional magician is worth WAY more than you charge and it is a simple fact. If this upsets you then sorry. You can either learn from what you are told and grow, or be upset and toil like this forever. It is your choice. As I said, you know what you are worth. If that is your range then so be it. Be happy and move on with it. I feel you could be worth far more. If this is offensive then so be it. I don't have time to coddle people who are oversensative to truth. Am I high priced? Probably not. Am I in demand? Kind of. But I do charge a lot more than even your high-end range and so should you. You should read some business books to help you to raise your fees, and learn about why it is a good thing for everyone. Something by Dean Dill or Jim Snack would make a world of difference. It is one of those questions where if you have to ask, the answer won't help. By the time you know the answer, you won't have to ask.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
People "trying to help" don't use cutesy names for the people they are trying to help, or the word "whine". People trying to be offensive do. I believe the internet word for this is "troll". You and icentertainment can save yourself the time it takes to type posts in this thread, because I'm not reading them anymore, and I suggest everyone else ignore you as well.
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iwillfoolu Special user Upstate NY, USA 746 Posts |
Jack,
If you think you might be undercharging, you probably are. Try this: Wait until a busy time of year for you. It might be summer or X-mas time...whenever. Raise your rates 50%. Yes 50%. You will probably make more money doing fewer shows (if you are only charging a few hundred). This is a capitalist country, you should be charging as much as you can get people to pay. And why would you give a discount to agents/common customers during the "lean" season? The agent is just going to keep the extra $10-$20. Besides if it is a lean season you need the money. When you quote your rates they should not say, "Oh, that's not as much as I thought it would be". We cannot tell you how much you should charge. We are not you. We can give you some "ideas" about how to do so. For example if someone says "You charge too much" will you lower your rates? Probably not. Here's another great guideline. If you want to work more: lower your rates. If you want to work less: raise your rates. If you are working too much, raise your rates. Joe |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
And I know all of that. What I don't know is what the market is bearing in general.
I'm curious how I compare to the average entertainer providing the service that I provide, under the conditions that I provide them. I know exactly how I feel about my prices, I'm curious how what I charge compares to the rest of the market I'm in. At least I'm curious now. I wasn't three days ago, before this whole thing started. Actually, I'm curious as to why no one else in my particular market has posted what they charge. I've gotten stage show quotes, and the odd quote on what someone that someone knows charges somewhere besides where I am. I haven't heard word one about how often these people who charge "a whole lot more than me" work, if at all. In fact, I have to say that all I lack is someone quoting to me what Roger Klause charges, and I'll have pretty much gotten the full spectrum of answers that are almost completely not what I was asking for. Honestly, I'm far more interested in this bizarre psychology taking place than any subject of rates. This odd thing that is happening, where the sharks circle, and the helpers dance around the subject, but almost no one seems to want to step forward and fess up. A lot of finger pointing, with no real observations of reality. |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
JackScratch,
I think you've received some good information in these threads. You've heard from several full-time pros including myself that you are charging less than the going rate. I repeat my advice from before that you should start to raise your fees every few months and see what happens. I bet you'll be getting $400 an hour for your December holiday parties. Then you can come back here and thank everyone for helping you to double your income!!! Good luck, buddy! James |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
I can charge whatever I want. I could raise my rates to $400 per hour right this very minute. The question is, will I get that amount? Will I still be working? Skill level not withstanding, you can't tell me that anyone in my area, who is not a celebrity, is recieving that amount, which is the question I asked in the first place.
While you could very well be correct, it isn't your income being gambled upon here. It's mine. I truely love the blanket assumption, by a group of people, not one of whom works my field, in my area, that I am wrong. Where do you people get the idea that economics is nearly that simple? I could, perhaps change the subject from what do you charge, to what do you pay in rent? By similar extrapolation of figures, to the one that has brought us to this point, I could derive that all of you are paying $2000 to $3000 for a "decent two bedroom apartment". Hell, I'm paying less than $1000 a month to buy my house. 3 bedrooms, 1300 square feet, 1 1/2 bath, in the city proper. Could I then demand that you are all fools to pay such a high rent, for such an apartment, as a similar one here would cost a mere $600 a month? Could I then tell you that what you need to do is just quit paying so much? How bout gas prices? Yesterday, I payed $2.50 a gallon to fill my car. What do you pay? I'll bet it is considerably more. This thread has done a superb job of showing a severe lack of perspective in this forum. I'm not saying that an actual answer to the question I actually answered wouldn't have been helpful, but instead I have gotten a bunch of shade-tree economist advise. You know that formula that got quoted in this thread? I hit it dead on the mark. That's right, I'm charging too little, which it turns out perfectly fits the suggested amount. How exactly does that work? |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Quote:
I could raise my rates to $400 per hour right this very minute. The question is, will I get that amount. Will I still be working? Umm, that's why I suggested you raise your rates gradually. It think I'll join all the other people who have gotten bored offering you friendly advice only to have you respond in anger. Take care, James |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
My anger would be at getting answers to every question except the one I actualy asked. All this helpful advice, a few insulting posts, and not one single person has actually posted what I asked for. I don't mind people not wanting to post that information, but then why reply at all? I think I have been given more than ample reason to be angry.
Go take a look at the first post in this thread. Actually read the question asked, then go see if you can find me one single post, out of the 30 here, that gives me what I asked for. If there were no replies to this thread at all, it would make me a great deal happier. |
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dominik Regular user Germany 143 Posts |
I think a good way to find out what people in your area might be willing to pay is to compare fees of various sorts of entertainment, not just magicians. For example: Comics, clowns, strippers, dancers, disk jockeys, cartoonists, musicians, ventriloquists. After all, you are in the entertainment business, aren't you?
If you know that a good solo musician in your area gets $X, and you know that a magician often costs N times as much (in whatever area), you might derive that somebody might be willing to pay N * $X for your services, right? And if prices in your area are too low, wouldn't you be willing to travel a few hundred miles if the price was right? |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
I can't travel, I have too many commitments. I'm the father and primary caregiver of a one-year-old. I've had an abnormaly busy late winter and spring, and babysitting has been a nightmare.
Solo musicians in this area deliver pizza. The thing is, I already have all this information. Every bit of research I have done over the past decade tells me I am charging the right amount for my area and my service. The only place I'm getting any contrary advice would be this thread on this forum. Where everyone tells me that I am charging way too little. They then give me a formula to find out what I should charge, and that formula tells me I'm charging inside the correct range. You want to know what I have learned in this thread? I have learned why no one ever, ever, ever, ever posts what they charge in a magic forum. It's because there isn't enough maturity here to deal with such inforation. I'm only sorry I had to learn this the hard way. My altruistic view of the world has been smashed. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
You have to admit, Drew, I was honest and open with you behind the scenes, and shared my rates with you. Although, as I admitted, I don't perform strolling. I just do stage and parlour shows. A little bit of comparing apples to oranges, as I admitted up front.
I also gave you information about the rates of another children's / family performer from the Houston area (got that information right off his website). But again, he wasn't sharing his strolling rates, just stage and parlour shows. I know of a couple of other performers from Houston. Do you know what Scott Hollingsworth gets for strolling in your area (he's from Houston)? When I met him in 1997 and again 1998, he was a busy pro, having performed thousands of hours of strolling magic. Plus he runs part of Magic Island. If you have an idea of what he charges, he might be a good gauge to measure by. - Donald P.S. Also, I can't get a decent quality two bedroom rental for $400 per month in my city. My current rent is about double that, and I live in a smaller city.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Yes I know Scott, and I have to say that the Entertainment Director of Magic Island, the only full magic venue in the city of Houston, counts as a celebrity, but that's my assesment. Not to mention, if memory serves, he has published at least two books if not more. No I don't know what he charges.
I'm not realy complaining about you. In fact, none of the PMs I recieved were anything but respectful, supportive, and yes, by and large answered my question. It's the thread I'm upset about. People posting their ideas about what I should charge, but only taking one or two factors into consideration and insisting that I'm charging to little. Again, they may be right, but they are making extremely poor cases and insisting that they are correct. That kind of garbage just infuriates me. As for your rent. That's my whole point. COL in Houston is pretty cheap, even for a small town, never mind a major metropoltin city. In an economy how can a person charge the same price for a service that is charged for that same service in every other city, if the going rate for all other services and products in his city are a fraction of the cost they recieve in other citys. It just doesn't make any economic sense. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ok Jackey, stop reading anything you want to. It shows a childish "I don't want to listen" attitude. You will get yourself real far in life with that.
Tell you what the old time guys like Eddie Tullock would say to you. "If you have to ask the question kid, you don't deserve to have an answer". I used to think this was harsh, but you have again proved to me that indeed the old timers knew what they were doing. If you think you are worth low rates, then indeed you should charge low rates. You may some day think of trying to charge more but in the end I couldn't possibly care less if you personally do or not. It is the others who may be in your position reading this thread who want to learn how to do this that I am writing for. YOU can stop reading that is fine with me. You will do what you want, fine again. Others please read James' posts and mine again along with Donald's. You really don't have to be a 100 - 200 buck guy. Unless that is all you are worth. What others charge is NOT relevant to anything. Offer better services, more services, different services, but charge what YOU are worth.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tglund Regular user Broomfield, CO, USA 115 Posts |
Ok, I have read this thread with some interest as I have been contemplating performing for a fee. I understand that there are several factors to consider when determining your fee. What might be useful would be a magicians' compensation guide. Other professions publish a yearly salary/compensation guide. Obviously there are many factors in those industries too, such as the size of the company, the geographical location, etc. etc. Maybe creating a magicians' compenstaion guide by geographical area, by show type, with high and low compensation ranges would at least give all of us an idea if we are over-charging, under-charging, or where new individuals could get at least an idea of what to charge without drastically undercutting the whole market.
Just an idea. What do the rest of you think? |
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Doug Arden Special user 886 Posts |
As a full-time professional I can give you pretty much the same advice Danny has. Figure what your show is worth and then CHARGE what it's worth. If all entertainers CHARGED what their shows were WORTH, the industry as a whole would be much better off.
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Here are some ways to figure out if you are undercharging. These are not set in stone, nor are they going to be right for all types of performing:
1) Are there more expensive magicians of your type in your area? (e.g. close-up corporate comedy) 2) Do fewer than 10% of people who ring not book you because you cost too much? 3) Do you never feel a tinge of guilt about how you charge compared to what teachers, doctors etc. get paid? 4) Do you say to yourself, "I'll charge more when I get better", "I'm not full-time so I don't need to charge as much", "I wish I got paid more for this", "Do I get fed at this gig because otherwise it's not worth my while"? If the answer to those three questions is YES, you might be undercharging.... |
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