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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Posted Pictures of the final spin of the newly corrected Phoenix II cups. The pictures do a side by side comparison of the Phoenix original to the new Phoenix II.
The enhancements were a tighter mouth bead against the cup which changed the look of the cup, a raised shoulder bead and increased saddle which now allows for 3 1 1/8" balls to be nested on top and cups stacked with no sticking or floating. The cups now take a "REGULATION" tennis ball such as Wilson, Penn etc. The cups are slightly heavier than the originals and spun from 065 copper. The inititial release will be copper due to the high cost of surgical stainless right now does not make it cost effective to spin these in heavy stainless as planned. Here is a link to the pictures.... http://www.rnt2.com/product.aspx?productno=212 The initital run will be 12 sets of copper. We'll be announcing pricing shortly on this set. Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
12 sets?!? An INSTANT collector's item then.
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johnnymystic Inner circle North Adams Ma. 1576 Posts |
Oooooh...how much they goona be boss?
Only twleve sets?! johnny
I drink cheap tequila and vomit
<BR>I cannot eat hot wings...acid reflux <BR>I never inhale <BR>I can put a field dress on a deer |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Johnny,
we're working on prices now. The initial run is 12 sets to see what kind of interest there still is in the Phoenix cup. If there is a demand for these then we'll increase the production, if not then 12 sets is it. Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Each set comes with Embroidered Phoenix II bag depicting the Phoenix rising up, 4 tight crochet working balls, 3 Copper Phoenix II cups in 065 thick heavy copper, 3 Final load Tennis Balls (Wilson or Penn) and detailed routine Book provided by John Mendoza.
http://www.rnt2.com/product.aspx?productno=212
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
At first I thought the photo was showing an old Phoenix cup next to a Monti cup. I pulled up a photo of a Monti cup and set the photos side-by-side. Is it just me, or are they really similar in shape (perhaps not in size) to the Monti cups?
What am(not) seeing? Mark
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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johnnymystic Inner circle North Adams Ma. 1576 Posts |
Honestly, I like the big lip of the old Phoenix better.
Is there a way to keep the Phoenix II the same except add the big lip to it? It would then more closely resemble it's predecessor...can it be done? johnny
I drink cheap tequila and vomit
<BR>I cannot eat hot wings...acid reflux <BR>I never inhale <BR>I can put a field dress on a deer |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
The Big lip as you call it is gaping mouth bead, something a lot of performers and collectors have complained about. The difference is 1/16th of an inch in both height and diameter change and we moved the center bead up to accomodate for the attic space. Take any phoenix cup, roll the bead up and you have the same looking cup as we came up with.
Chessman, not even close to a Monti, a monti will take 3 3/4" balls on the saddle, the Phoenix takes 3 1 1/8", cup height in different, the Phoenix takes a Regulation Tennis ball, the Montis will only take a lacrosse. There is nothing adventageous to having the larger lip, as a matter for fact, had the cup been properly rolled at the end, that lip would not be much bigger if any that what we have now. Bigger lip would cause rock and handling ackward with the changes made in the balancing of the cups. Take a look at Bill Palmers site, and look at the original Bertram cups, this is the design we are back to. There is not fat lip bead on the bertram cups and with the dimensional corrections this is the result, the fat lip would not serve any purpose. These resemble the Bertram cup more than anything. Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
It's a good looking cup. Hasn't quite got the personality of the original and at $225.00 it's over three times the price I paid for my original set of Phoenix cups.
Not that it's not worth the price it's just that the market seems to be glutted with these high end cups and what we could use is a durable under a hundred dollar set of cups.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Payne... glutted is the word. That's why I quit making cups. Right after I did the Galli Galli and Johnny Paul cups about six or seven makers hit the dealers with cups. I can't believe how many variations are now on the market.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
These have been on the workbench now for close to 20 months. We didn't model this after the Bertram cup, we simply made the corrections to the cup that everyone was screaming for. This brings the cup production with RNT II to a close. The Foxy II.V and jumbo Street cups were are last cup projects from RNT II.
The Phoenix cups that sold under 100.00 were seconds, just look at them, no need to tell you what is different with each cup in a set. The new run was made so all cups matched, were balanced, fixed attic space and load capacity. The gaping lip on the cup was the one of the biggest complaints by everyone that emailed us. As stated before, closing that bead makes them look like the Bertram cups. Also the cups no longer Rock. As far as the market being glutted with highend cups, one can choose to make low end cups out of 030 material or you can buy worker cups that will probally outlast the life of the performer, that's what we do, we don't make the low end pieces, we leave that to the other well known companies. You can buy Snap-On as your tools or you can go to Dollar General and buy that 5.99 tool kit. Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The original price of the Phoenix cups, cased, with wand and certificate was $200 - $240. The lower prices later were for cups that were either factory seconds or firsts that did not have the certificate.
The Phoenix II cups look interesting. I'll be curious to see how they feel. I don't think of a set of cups that costs less than $300 as a particularly "high end" cup. High end cups would be sets like the Sherwoods, the Risers, and the better RnT II cups. I realize this is possibly a jaded POV. If you want "personality," get a set of the "Gauklerbecher" from Freer's or Zauberladen Zürich. They look positively medieval. They will cost you about $250 when you get through with the currency change. Time for a reality check here. If you want a copper cup that is made in the US, you are going to have to pay for it. There is an international copper shortage right now. The wire and cable companies have been fighting it for about 30 years, and there really isn't a good subsitute for copper in that industry. Aluminum, for example, has its own set of problems, not the least of which is the bad rap it has taken for starting house fires due to incompetent installers. You can get perfectly usable copper cups from Argentina, if you wish. They mine the stuff there, and their labor is cheap. But they will basically be copies of early Morrissey cups with improvements. Morrissey is a good example of what happens when copper prices go up. In order to compete in the world market, they have used thinner and thinner copper, just to keep the prices down. Aluminum is not the answer. It's cheap, but to make aluminum durable, there are things that need to be done to it that make it much more difficult to spin than normal aluminum. However, casting and turning is an option. Brass, church bronze and red bronze are all options as well, but each has its own peculiarity. If someone could reissue a cup like the Tannen's "Stubby Cup," that would be a winner. It will take a tennis ball easily. The attic space will permit the use of a large ball, but the geometry of the cup limits the size of the three ball nest. In the end, it's the geometry of the cups that is the problem. If you make the sides too vertical at the shoulder bead, the cups have a tendency to stick together. If you give them too much of an angle, you lose attic space. Maybe that's why I don't design, em. I just collect em.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-21 12:35, Mad Jake wrote: Since the original Phoenix cups were modeled after the Bertram cups by fixing the errors you inadvertantly brought them closer to the original upon which they were based than the originals themselves. No problem with that. I stopped using my Phoenix Cups when I came across a set of Magic Inc. Bertram cups that were missed labeled on Ebay. I got them for $60.00. the Bertram is a fine cup, one of my favorites and there is no shame in basing a cup upon this great design. Yes Snap On Tools are great but sometimes you really need that dollar store screwdriver. BTW Pete, have you got nay Johnny Paul cups left? I'd pick up a set from you a Kramiens if you do.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Payne:
If the cups you got on eBay were the Magic, Inc. cups, you don't have a set of Bertram Cups. You have a set of Charlie Miller cups. This may sound like nitpicking, but there is a big difference in the workmanship and the feel of the two sets. The Bertram cups actually stack with a tad more attic space. Not much, but a little. You can tell the difference by looking at the area directly above and below the shoulder bead. If you see a flat impression that goes all the way around the cup directly above and below the bead, then you have the Charlie Miller cups. Ross objected somewhat to the use of his name in conjunction with these cups. Ross hated these cups, because he felt the workmanship was lacking. He actually spun the earlier sets of his cups, himself. Mike Rogers preferred these cups to the Magic, Inc. cups by a wide margin. In any case, though, you got a bargain on those cups. Miller cups generally sell for about $250, if the people selling them know what they have.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Payne,
very true, however we didn't want to put the Bertram cup on the pedestal and work from that, we did that with the old Phoenix. The mouth bead correction changed the look of the cup dramatically, taking it back to the Bertram style. We have already recieved numerous emails saying "Hey that's a Betram cup, not a Phoenix. In our opinion they somewhat surpass the Bertram cup as they don't rock, the attic space is larger and 1 1/8" balls nest easily without sticking or floating. One thing about pricing for Made in the USA cups, if you sub your work out the cost would be double what it is now. People tend to think 225.00 is a highend price, but considering we cut 13 blocks to get the design right the price is competitive for a cup of this weight and design. We factor in the material cost 065 gauge, not cheap these days, shop time to spin and anneal the cups, these cups are annealed 5 times from start to finish, the bag, the balls and the embroidery on the bags. What we do not work into the price, the polishing, I checked with our plater, to polish each cup would cost 30.00 a cup, that's a 90.00 cost we don't' figure in as we do the polishing ourselves in addition to the spinning. We don't figure in mis-fires, developement etc. There is not a very large profit margin on cups despite what people think, unless of course we wanted to send the job overseas, eh eh, that will never happen. Why make cups and take a narrow profit margin? Good question, guess we're nuts and we like knowing there are performers using our equipment. Sometimes recognition out weighs monetary gain, not always but sometimes. Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-21 14:01, Bill Palmer wrote: Yes mine are the Magic Inc. cups which I've always heard referred to as the MillerBertram cups. I was not aware of the controversy surrounding these cups but knew that Bertram had nothing to do with their manufacture. My only complaint with the Magic Inc. cups is that the copper is really soft. They ding very easily from the lightest of wand taps. I've stopped using them because of this and now almost exclusively use my Harries Bosco cups, which though made of considerably lighter gauge copper seem to be made of sterner stuff.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The Harries Bosco cups are really an untapped resource. Tim Star may be spinning those for Harries, now that he has moved back to Sweden.
I learned about the controversy over the Charlie Miller cups from Mike Rogers, then found even more about it from David Ben.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-21 15:04, Bill Palmer wrote: I'd love to get another set spun out of something a little heavier. They are a nearly perfect cup for the RenaissanceMediaeval performer as they have that classic beakerflowerpot shape. Almost everyone makes varients on the Paul Fox Thermos Cup shape these days which are too modern looking to my eye for the historical reenactor market in which I work.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I have some ideas for a reenactor's cup, but it would not be cheap to make. I would base them on the early 19th century French design.
The Tannen Stubby Cups would be good for this, too. They are reasonably heavy. Jim Riser's Traditional Cups are about right.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-21 16:09, Bill Palmer wrote: We've got a local reenactor who does a pretty good job of spinning. Has even made a portable flywheel lathe that he takes to demos to spin with. I've toyed with the idea of asking him how much a run of cups would be but I haven't crossed paths with him in a while. Haven't run across a set of Tannens Stubby cups. Are these the ones sometimes refered to as Garcia cups. Tom Frank has a set of these in his collection. Would love to get a set of Riser Traditional cups but I never seem to have the funds at the same time he has the cups and visa versa. Do you know if he plans on ever making another run of this style of cup?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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