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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
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Physicians don't experiment with open heart surgery until they find the procedure that fits their personality best. They pay thousands of dollars to attend seminars by the leading surgeons in the field. Why? Because they want cutting edge information from someone who has been there and done that. As I said I was NOT there. It would be foolish to even have an opinion about the event. But I do have an opinion about what is being posted... MAYBE you got what you paid for. In my opinion Max should have been charging thousands of dollars. Instead he charged $100. You said it yourself. YOU want to shorten the learning curve. WE did not miss the point. YOU just made it AGAIN for us. You DID shorten the learning curve by $100 worth. Performing IS about enlightenment. It is about YOU figuring out who YOU are and being brave enough to put it out there for others to witness. But that is another discussion all together. Performing is NOT surgery. (IF IT WERE THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF DEAD BODIES IN THE THEATRE AT THE END OF SOME OF THESE SHOWS LOL!!!) But for some of us it is a serious business. I understand that. When we ALL decide that we will pay people like Max what they deserve then MAYBE we will get something in return. Maybe we will see the quality of these lectures and seminars increase. We hear this complaint ALL the time. That people paid so much for a magic lecture and they were not happy. HOW do we control the quality? We cannot send out the magic police. MAYBE we control it with our wallets. We PAY for the big names. I am not talking $100. I am talking MORE than that. Pay a fee they are worth. Maybe that speaker will have more of an incentive to offer better info. MAYBE NOT...I don't know...LOL! I ask this question in ALL seriousness. If I could set up a day long workshop with a BIG name mentalist, somebody with Max Maven's rep., one that delivers on the promise to answer ALL your questions... would you pay $1500.00 for the experience? If I can get the committment of 25 guys from this board or others...I WILL PRODUCE THE EVENT!!! BTW: I produce events such as this for a living. NOT magic events...but professional conferences. What Mozart claims about spending thousands of dollars is %100 correct. OUR speakers charge us an average of $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 to speak at our events...and that is just for an hour or two!!! That magicians are only being charged $100 dollars to interact with Max Maven, of ALL people...is absolutely INSANE!!! The price should have been at least $1500.00!!! Did you know that the average fee for a lecturer is still only $250!!! We are eating our own. The magic community that has concerns about WHY nobody wants to pay magicians what they are worth....still REFUSES to step up and pay it's own the fees they deserve. Perhaps this is why we are unhappy with the results? Or not...
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
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On 2006-04-27 23:44, Sergeant wrote: THIS IS ALL WORTH AT LEAST $100!!! Oh my!
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I don't blame you for saying my question "has no merit." The logical extension of your original response IS a bit silly. There was no speculation involved. In response to the "Use your imagination" example, you said that if ALL he got out of the seminar was THAT, the money was well-spent. As I said, I wasn't there, either; I have no idea of the content of the seminar other than what I've heard from those who WERE there. I think it's pretty clear, though, that it would take more than "Use your imagination" to merit a hundred-dollar price tag.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Christophercarter Regular user 132 Posts |
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On 2006-04-28 12:02, P.T. Murphy wrote: P.T., You've stated several times that you weren't there, and can have no opinion on the event, yet that doesn't stop you from intimating that those who were there are somehow wrong in their assessment or too shallow in their thinking. This may not be the meaning you want to convey, but it is the impression you are making. I agree that experts should be paid more in accordance with what they're worth. But it was Max who set the price, and regardless of the price one sets, there's never any excuse for not giving one's best. If the people who attended perceived that he did not, then you should give an ear to why they might feel that way rather than judge their reaction to an event you didn't even experience. --Chris |
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threecardmonte Loyal user 278 Posts |
A couple comments...
I was in Midwest Magic minutes before Max arrived and the guy behind the counter said there was 19 signed up. That's $1900. Even if Midwest took a little off the top, I'd say Max did all right for a few hours work. Those of you who attended, did you get $1900 worth of info? Lecturers only charge around $250 because they rely on "back of the room" sales to make money. Notes, books, dvds, tricks, etc. Let's not cry for these guys, they are doing ok. |
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
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P.T., You've stated several times that you weren't there, and can have no opinion on the event, yet that doesn't stop you from intimating that those who were there are somehow wrong in their assessment or too shallow in their thinking. This may not be the meaning you want to convey, but it is the impression you are making. Oh no. Please don't get me wrong. I think the reasoning behind some of these arguments posted by those who were there AND by those that weren't there IS shallow. I guess I didn't feel the need to spell it out until now. BUT I do NOT deny anybody their right to be angry. Heck if you are unhappy BE unhappy. But I reserve the right to argue with you if you post your thoughts on this site. The problem is that the OTHER side of this argument is not being presented. So what we have is a mini little witch hunt, where the accused is tried and executed in one convenient little post. It happens all the time on this site. And it is silly. NOW the post about somebody being unhappy about a seminar is turning into something else. C'mon...I am supposed to give everybody that posted the benefit of the doubt...BUT Max Maven or anybody else we decide deserves it is NOT allowed the benefit of the doubt? UGH!
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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threecardmonte Loyal user 278 Posts |
[quote]On 2006-04-28 15:50, P.T. Murphy wrote:
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The problem is that the OTHER side of this argument is not being presented. So what we have is a mini little witch hunt, where the accused is tried and executed in one convenient little post. It happens all the time on this site. And it is silly. NOW the post about somebody being unhappy about a seminar is turning into something else. A very good point indeed, Max is not here to defend himself. So like I said in a previous post, perhaps everybody should email Max themselves, and let him know your grievances. |
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Christophercarter Regular user 132 Posts |
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On 2006-04-28 15:50, P.T. Murphy wrote: If Max wishes to present his point of view regarding this event, then of course he would be accorded the "benefit of the doubt," whatever that means. After all, he was there. If anybody who attended the event who disagrees with the posters chimes in, then they should be accorded the same benefit, for the same reason. On what basis do you judge this shallowness regarding an event you admittedly were not part of? Your attitude toward these posters is a great example of why many people don't care to post. Rather than quizzing them in any depth, you choose to treat them like children. In so doing you say a great deal more about yourself than about the discussion at hand. --Chris |
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hendoo New user 99 Posts |
Good for you Chris! Jumping in at the end to play the good guy!!! Woo Hoo! Now all we have is a thread by a bunch of pompous schmucks who weren't even at the event. Me included!!!
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Christophercarter Regular user 132 Posts |
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On 2006-04-28 16:58, hendoo wrote: Hendoo, I guess you're right, but I've always been that way. --chris |
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
Chris-
Please go back and read all of these posts. If after doing so you still have the same opinion of me so be it. You are entitled. We are here to discuss...and sometimes will challenge each others points of view. I am one of "these posters" that you refer to. I am proud to be an active part of this online community and proud of everybody that finds the courage to post on the Café. I would hope my having an opinion would NOT scare anybody off. I would I had that much control over somebody's behavior. My problem is I would use that power for EVIL and NOT Good!
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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Christophercarter Regular user 132 Posts |
P.T.,
I'm probably overreacting. Hendoo obviously thinks I am I've had several lengthy personal conversations with one of the posters who was there, and I thought he had some very interesting things to say. Much more detailed than he posted here. Not shallow observations at all, but also not positive. But since I have also not seen the seminar, let me get back to something we can actually discuss. To those who attended, I've gathered from what you've said that you felt the seminar lacked focus. Could you explain a little more how it was organized, what you expected, and what you think you got? Good and bad. --Chris |
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David Parr V.I.P. 898 Posts |
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On 2006-04-28 15:18, threecardmonte wrote: The individual who posted the quote above is laboring under a misapprehension, possibly because he or she has no experience presenting magic lectures. Magic lecturers, myself included, do not charge only $250 because we rely on back of room sales. Quite the opposite: We rely on back of room sales because we're only paid $250. Our travel expenses are often not covered by the organizations hiring us. We pay for the airfare, the taxi, our meals. We have no choice but to rely on pitching books, videos and effects. And in some cases, merchandise sales provide barely enough to break even. I hope the people reading this thread consider what a topsy-turvy situation this is. I am aware of no other field of endeavor, from acting to computer software design, in which speakers who are experts in their fields are expected to share their expertise for so little. P.T. Murphy has real-world experience in this arena: he organizes major conventions all over the world, conventions attended by thousands of people. I can assure you that the featured speakers at those events are not paying their air fare and being put up in the cheapest motel in town. Those speakers are people who have worked to reach the top of their game in their chosen fields, and they are treated with respect and paid what they are worth. |
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threecardmonte Loyal user 278 Posts |
With all due respect Mr. Parr...
While I don't do it any more, I have had plenty of experience hosting lectures. Yes it is true that lecturers have to pay for their flight, but it is up to me to supply the hotel, and in some cases, pick them up from the airport. And a savvy lecturer will book several engagements in the same area to make the flight worth their while. And while $250 is pretty reasonable to bring someone in, they get that no matter what. If only ten people show up, too bad, I still have to pay the lecturer. (a couple times I had to pay money out of my own pocket) If lecturing is so bad for you guys, why even do it? As far as speakers at conventions are concerned I am afraid PT and yourself are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they charge more. But they also speak to thousands af people. If a speaker charges $10,000 to speak to 1000 people, that's only $10 a person. (isn't that the average price for a magic lecture?) I apologize to the individual who originaly posted this thread, we got way off topic. |
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
Okay...can we wrap this up? We are still on the topic...MONEY and DISSATISFACTION...Please take a look at Mozart's post where he mentions surgeons and thousands of dollars to learn new procedures...you will see that we did NOT start the comparison we just ran with it...improvised on a theme if you will...that said...
I think it is ultra-tacky to attend a seminar or lecture and then complain about it after and NOT say something to the manager or the performer when you have the chance. Then post your comments on a public forum where you pretend to care about the craft BUT in reality you are just smearing somebody's reputation. Especially when it is done anonymously. That is just my take.
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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David Parr V.I.P. 898 Posts |
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On 2006-04-28 22:58, threecardmonte wrote: The answer is that I enjoy discussing, examining and teaching the subject of magic. Presenting magic lectures has allowed me to use and develop teaching skills that I don't necessarily get to utilize in performances for the public. Also, over the years, I've really appreciated the opportunity to meet authors and creators I admire, both in magic and out in the wide world, and I think it's important to give readers of my books an opportunity to meet me and see me perform magic. What I do not enjoy is the system of standard procedures that surround magic lectures. That system is broken. It promotes a situation in which lecturers devote more attention to pitching merchandise (because they have to) than to providing a genuine learning experience, and lecture audiences end up with dealer demos disguised as lectures. Which is why I applaud Max for sidestepping the system, rejecting the standard procedures, and doing his own thing by offering seminars such as these. |
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Yellowjacket Regular user Wisconsin 159 Posts |
I am quite surprised how this thread has continued.
Originally, the question was directed at people who attended and asked what was our take on the lecture. I believe I stated my point(s) very clearly. But just so there is no mistake about how I feel I will further clarify. One: I make 100% of my living performing magic. Two: I do not do a mentalism show. I have done and do mental magic in my shows but not a “mentalism show” Three: My intention was to gather information about mentalism to aid in determining if it was something I might pursue as a financial and artistic option. I approached this 4 hour lecture with the belief that solid, useful, and comprehensive information would be given about becoming a mentalism performer. I also believed that our questions would be answered in a direct and helpful way. Let us recall that the title of the lecture is “So you want to be a mentalist”. Max did not have a set agenda. He stated up front that he would simply answer our questions. Great. He went around the room and had everyone state the questions that they would like to have answered. The questions asked by the group were very good. By the time he got to me, I only had one question to add because I felt the group had asked an impressive array of subject matter. As the answer portion of the lecture began, it became apparent that the responses were vague. When asked a direct question, he would not answer it clearly, unless pressed. If you did press him, he was clearly unhappy about it and ended up being rude to the person pressing him. This was a no win situation. A person’s feelings about the lecture at this point become subjective. However, I will address my feelings on the subject. If you are going to charge people for answers to their questions then I expect comprehensive thorough answers. I do not believe we received that. As I stated before many of his answers were vague and superficial. I personally walked away with very little. If I were to compare this with other lectures I would rate it about 3 out of 10. I have attended lectures where the material simply did not interest me personally, but I still felt the lecturer did a good job. In this case, I can not say the same. PT Murphy: I can sympathize with your argument that a world class performer did not charge his worth. But as Chris Carter stated, he set the price. So I expect his best. I do not expect to get all giddy with excitement simply because he shared one gem out of a four hour block. Using your logic, If someone pays me to do my show, they should be happy if I do only one good trick in the show. Of the following general statement you made I can only assume you are talking about me and possibly Sergeant and Mozart. You state that I am ultra-tacky because I did not say something to the performer or manager after the performance. That is an assumption!! You also state that I post my comments on a public forum and smear his reputation. What?? I posted my review of his lecture. Period. No smearing, no personal attacks, no grudges. Just what I think about the lecture. No different then Michael Close reviewing a book or Milstead reviewing a movie. I think I am entitled to that, even if the review is not good. You also state that I only pretend to care about the craft of magic. I find it quite presumptuous of you to make that kind of statement when you do not even know me. Sergeant summed up the subjects that were covered pretty good and I agree with him/her (there were three women at the lecture so I will choose to be careful) I will point out that even he was not fully satisfied with the results. Are we too shallow to understand his great wisdom? I don’t think so. For David Parr I have done a (only one) lecture tour. I had fun, but chose not to do any more simply because it did not make financial sense. Magic is a small community so you will not get rich doing lectures. If you do lectures on magic, it probably should be for the love of magic and not to make a living. So I agree with you on this. It is sad that many lecturers must pitch their wares to make ends meet on these kinds of tours when I would rather hear about their real thoughts on the art. I do agree…raise your price. I paid the $100 for lecture. It’s supply and demand. David Parr makes a point that perhaps we are not perceptive enough to understand Max. I believe myself to be perceptive enough to understand basic questions about becoming a mentalist. But, David, let’s assume I am a low watt bulb and cannot grasp his intellect. You also stated that he has been so often accused of evasiveness. You cannot understand why. I can. So that puts me with so many of the others. I guess I can take comfort in knowing there are many other clods like me around. You are right, his articulation is fantastic (in his show) but not in his lecture. Now to be frank, was I disappointed with the lecture? Absolutely. Am I going to ask for my money back? No, it was a hundred dollars, and with any lecture you are gambling a little. Some lectures are great, some are good, and some miss the mark. If it was a thousand dollars, there might be a different answer. But in all fairness a hundred dollars is a lot of money to some people. So everyone might not feel the same. Since Max Maven is a world class performer do I have the right to my opinion to his lecture without being told that I am shallow, unperceptive, or ignorant? Yes. It was a simple lecture. Let it go, in the scheme of life there are so many more important things to worry about. Yellowjacket |
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P.T. Murphy Loyal user 224 Posts |
Let it go...yes you are right. Well said.
I hope we all agree that ideas and opinions should be challenged. The notion of an opinion gone unchallenged is a frightening one. At times it is really difficult to have a sound discussion over the internet. Especially about subjects that are this big and where the passions run deep. Yellowjacket and others have tapped a very sensitive nerve...As did I and a few others. Things do get misinterpeted. With the lag time in responding to each other ONLY the illusion of conversation is given. The positive side of this is that the lag time allows us to think about what we said and this forum gives us the option to retract...redefine...explain our responses. Who in there right mind would expect somebody to change there opinion? I do not begrudge anybody their opinion...BUT we all reserve the right to argue..with that opinion. It is just plain un-American to assume otherwise. LOL! I LOVE that forums such as this exist so we can experience what others have to say. The intelligence and courage to implement your opinion is what keeps things going. Much like a car on the road. Without a healthy amount of friction between auto and pavement...the darned thing would be skidding all over the place and killing innocent bystanders! In fairness to Yellowjacket there were moments where I did assume the role of auto and cast him as the pavement! LOL! Just as it wasn't your intention to be misunderstood...it was not my intention either. THIS very thread is the reason we should ALL continue to post. As a friend of mine mentioned WE must continue the discourse. When the discourse stops...THEN WE ARE IN BIG BIG TROUBLE!!!
P.T. Murphy
www.ptmurphy.com |
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David Parr V.I.P. 898 Posts |
The point I tried to make about perception was not that anyone here is unintelligent or a clod. What I was getting at is that similar statements from different sources are sometimes perceived -- or perhaps more precicely, interpreted -- in an entirely different way. I imagined Eugene Burger making a similar statement about using our imaginations to come up with alternative ways to present mind reading. And I postulated that a significant number of people would interpret that statement as another of Eugene's reminders to follow our own creative paths. What may seem vague and evasive coming from one person could seem empowering coming from an individual who is known for making empowering statements. This has nothing to do with the intelligence of the listener. I merely proposed that it MAY be a matter of perception or interpretation.
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robinwiley Hollywood 0 Posts |
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On 2006-04-27 04:42, David Parr wrote: I attended the same lecture in Phoenix the week before and enjoyed it a lot. Sure, Max did not write scripts for people -- nor should he. He's a "big picture" person and the lecture was more about the philosophy of mentalism. (If you want a "nuts-and-bolts" lecture on mentalism go see Chuck Hickock.) Perhaps the advance publicity was different in Chicago, but I felt that all 15 attendees in Phoenix knew what they were in for and had a satisfying and enjoyable experience. -Robin |
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